Brilliant Jerks in Engineering • Hacker News Board

Re: Brilliant Jerks in Engineering

#191

Post by DSMan195276 » Mon, Nov 13, 2017, 9:55 PM UTC

cperciva wrote: post #187

digi_owl wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linus Torvalds have gotten an undeserved reputation because it is oh so easy for the online tech media to take emails out of context. Whenever he brings out the harsh words, it is because someone has been stalling and deflecting about breaking some core rule for kernel development. Torvalds never pounce on someone out on tail end of the patch chain. He comes down hard on those that have been in charge of maintaining…

Torvalds never pounce on someone out on tail end of the patch chain. He comes down hard on those that have been in charge of maintaining major sections of the kernel for years, and should know what is expected of them. I don't think that's necessarily good enough. Even if he is personally restrained in whom he acts like a jerk towards, his behaviour establishes norms within the project and contributes to how other pe…

> I don't think that's necessarily good enough. Even if he is personally restrained in whom he acts like a jerk towards, his behaviour establishes norms within the project and contributes to how other people behave.

I'd really like to see some examples of these "norms". His outbursts really are few and far between - hence why they always make the "news" when they happen. He posts several emails a day to the LKML and virtually all of them are perfectly nice and helpful.

I might not defend how exactly he goes about telling people they're doing something wrong, but it's not like he sits there chewing people out everyday, and it's not at all clear to me how you make the claim that his outbursts contribute to how other people behave on the LKML when people behave perfectly fine on the LKML.

Re: Brilliant Jerks in Engineering

#192

Post by razakel » Mon, Nov 13, 2017, 9:59 PM UTC

grandalf wrote: post #33

The situation I've encountered is a jerk who was actually fairly mediocre in his abilities but whose bully characteristics and brash confidence had led many of the non-technical people in the company to believe he was extremely skilled. I think one reason people become bullies is because they know they can't back up their decisions with skill. Linus is brash, but is quite able to work well with people and has the res…

IMO the best way to spot a jerk is how they react to their own screwups.

Everyone has been there at some point in their career, whether it's rm -rf / on a production server, or forgetting a WHERE clause in a DELETE query - you WILL fuck something up, and it'll be something important.

Now, a normal person will own up to their mistake, use it as a learning experience, laugh about it, and maybe ask someone for help. Take the mickey a bit, but don't give them too hard a time. They know what they did and they respect you, which is why they asked you.

This leads to the second way to spot them: do they take other people's advice or suggestions on board? Even if they don't think it's the right solution, do they engage politely in a constructive discussion? Nobody is an expert on everything.

If they don't do either of those, you've got a narcissist on your hands.

Another thing to bear in mind is that occasionally a particularly egregious asshole needs taking down a few pegs. That's how you handle bullies - you take their perceived power away.

Re: Brilliant Jerks in Engineering

#193

Post by crdoconnor » Mon, Nov 13, 2017, 10:03 PM UTC

s73ver_ wrote: post #167

crdoconnor wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I prefer working with "Alices". It's refreshing to see people actually called on their bullshit. IMHO there's also a limit to how much you can spare everybody's feelings and still be effective at that ^^. I think the OP believed that there isn't a limit. I think he's wrong. In a corporate environment, there's almost no value in actually being one though. Linus Torvalds would almost never be promoted and would frequen…

One can "call someone on their bullshit" without being mean. And, quite frankly, if someone in my organization said that someone should be 'retroactively aborted' for a tech choice they made, I'd argue for their termination too.

>One can "call someone on their bullshit" without being mean.

I don't think you can, actually. You can do it without being gratuitously mean, but one way or the other somebody's feelings are going to get hurt.

>And, quite frankly, if someone in my organization said that someone should be 'retroactively aborted' for a tech choice they made, I'd argue for their termination too.

Is what you make as technically impressive as linux?

Re: Brilliant Jerks in Engineering

#194

Post by curtisblaine » Mon, Nov 13, 2017, 10:10 PM UTC

> Bob interrupts others, and ignores their opinions

You don't know what a brilliant jerk is. Brilliant jerks never interrupt anyone and listen to everyone. But they always find a way to do (and make other people do) what's best for themselves.

Re: Brilliant Jerks in Engineering

#195

Post by ramchip » Mon, Nov 13, 2017, 10:16 PM UTC

fanpuns wrote: post #186

luckydude wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've known Linus for a long time and don't believe him to be malicious. Do you have context for that statement? Linus has a sly sense of humor, I bet it was either directed at some code or it was in jest.

Here's the email. Jest may be hard to discern via text, but I if I had made that contribution (directly or indirectly) and was met by this response by the maintainer, I think it would be my last. https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/7/6/495 Actually, after reading it a few more times, I can't find any jest in it tbh

He’s essentially saying “this userland code is beyond stupid, but we don’t break userland so here’s how we can keep it working.”

The comment is neither aimed at the contributor (who works on kernel code) nor the reporter (who did not write the code). In fact if you read the rest of the thread you can see them concur and joke about it.

Re: Brilliant Jerks in Engineering

#196

Post by antisthenes » Mon, Nov 13, 2017, 10:22 PM UTC

heygrady wrote: post #139

spenczar5 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong because you are ineffective. You want a good thing: you want your environment to change for the better. But if you find yourself getting into arguments with managers, then you are probably not effectively changing minds, and you will get frustrated. You already sound frustrated. Speaking the truth straight out can feel good, but it is rarely a good rhetorical strategy. Instead, back up, and start with t…

I've given advice to young professionals in the past in this same vein. I ask, "What magic is it that people love good ideas, yet, you have a good idea and no one listens to you?" The answer boils down to this: if you have a good idea but people are rejecting it, find a new way to talk about it.

The real answer is that ideas are a dime a dozen and execution is everything.

When you proclaim a good idea, you aren't offering an execution plan to go with it, so people (rightfully) ignore it.

Re: Brilliant Jerks in Engineering

#197

Post by s73ver_ » Mon, Nov 13, 2017, 10:26 PM UTC

luckydude wrote: post #168

s73ver_ wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. In what context is saying that someone should be 'retroactively aborted' a perfectly fine thing to say?

I've known Linus for a long time and don't believe him to be malicious. Do you have context for that statement? Linus has a sly sense of humor, I bet it was either directed at some code or it was in jest.

No, it was neither of those things. It was him being a jerk to someone who had the audacity to do something in a different way.

Re: Brilliant Jerks in Engineering

#198

Post by watwut » Mon, Nov 13, 2017, 10:31 PM UTC

alexanderstears wrote: post #179

s73ver_ wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the comparison of being a jerk to your co-workers, and someone taking time off (to which they are entitled in companies that have sick leave) to care for their sick child to be false equivalence to the point of absurdity. Further, why should I tolerate someone who is making my work life that much unpleasant? I can easily get a job somewhere else.

If the person has a kid that's sick as often as the jerk is a jerk (read - a majority of the time), you won't be so thrilled about picking up their slack. There are people who have chronicly sick kids and you have to believe that it affects their productivity / affects them every single day. And the situations aren't perfectly analogous with respect to the intention behind leaving work for a sick kid, or being a jerk…

People with kids have lower salaries and are passed for promotions. People (women mostly) expected to have kids or suspect of wanting to be with kids at least some of the time too.

Jerks affect productivity of those around, people who were bacstabbed, people who were not told information, people who were lied about, people who were smeared (including professional reputation aka calling good ideas stupid to get dominance), etc.

So yeah, if local jerk has lower salary and is refused promotion, then it is kinda fair.

Still, he himself is to be blamed for his behavior.

Re: Brilliant Jerks in Engineering

#199

Post by on_and_off » Mon, Nov 13, 2017, 10:37 PM UTC

vikascoder wrote: post #136

MBCook wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is certainly a problem I’ve seen. One employee was hated by almost all the technical people because he was a jackass and couldn’t work with others. He wanted everything done his way and wasn’t interested in the opinions of others (except as they may bolster how great his ideas were). The truth is he wasn’t very good, at least not to the degree he tried to present. Some of management loved him because he worked s…

There are Jerks and Non-Jerks. Also Brilliant Folks and Averae Joes(?). I dont know why we tend to club two different qualities and consider them as a single entity. The question should be, "This employee is a jerk, what to do about it" rather than, "This employee is a brilliant jerk, should we tolerate it". There are enough brilliant people who are excellent human beings with no failings and plenty of mediocre bulli…

I have been lucky enough to have encountered very few jerks.

We are in a field where cooperation is encouraged and leads to benefits for everybody as long as the team culture allows it.

I did have to work with one jerk in a team of 19 people. He was meh as an engineer. Not awful but not nearly as great as he thought he was, he only had experience for him.

He was the only person extremely protective of his turf (for exemple, he was the only admin on the jenkins server).

It mostly seem to come from poor character and insecurity.

In the end many people (including me) did just not really work with him most of the time and in such a large team it was not really an issue.

The bar for being a jerk brilliant enough for people to bear your insanity is extremely high IMO. There are many great engineers who are also great people, so little reason to settle for a jerk.

Re: Brilliant Jerks in Engineering

#200

Post by exelius » Mon, Nov 13, 2017, 10:38 PM UTC

valuearb wrote: post #112

exelius wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By all accounts I've heard from friends working at Google X, Sergey Brin is the textbook definition of a "brilliant jerk". This probably has something to do with it.

Facebook has open floor plans not because they are effective at collaboration or productive work environments, but because Mark Zuckerberg prefers being able to see everyone at work. Companies tend to be modeled around the strengths and weaknesses of their founders.

Not disagreeing with you at all; simply pointing out there may be a good reason why Google is more tolerant of brilliant jerks than other places. I do have to say that most "brilliant jerks" don't end up being worth the time you put into them because they're usually the first to jump ship when something better comes along...