USCIS is challenging an unusually large number of H-1B applications • Hacker News Board

Re: USCIS is challenging an unusually large number of H-1B applications

#191

Post by throwayit » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 8:52 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #13

Conservatives may generally view this as "good" regardless of the impact because (according to arguments I've heard) "the less globalization, the better." In my mind, however, it boils down to two pretty simple points: Given that (1) the US is lagging far behind every developed nation in education, and higher education in the US is prohibitively expensive compared to other developed nations, (2) the only way for the…

I think the major issue with your line of reasoning (which I mostly agree with it) is you are assuming wealth distribution. I mean, yes it is in our economy's interests to make it easy to steal talent.

However, do economic gains flow to Americans? No, not really because we don't have socialist systems in place to distribute the wealth gained from "stealing talent". So yes stealing talent is good, but it really only benefits corporate shareholders and upper class Americans. The unhappy Americans who are voting for "America First" don't see the gains from startups and tech companies; they are geographically isolated from these companies and even if they lived in California (or any other tech center) they lack the skills to be employed.

So essentially in my view you have a conflict of interest. It is in the best economic interest of the country to be able to attract talent. However, the US is a democracy and unless the economic gains are spread across the entire population, this will not satisfy, "we the people"

So we have really two options in response 1) implement socialist systems to spread wealth to the population or 2) go isolationist to insist that wealth only flows inward

It's embedded in American culture that socialism is bad which is why #2 has been the chose solution.

Re: USCIS is challenging an unusually large number of H-1B applications

#192

Post by dominotw » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 8:53 PM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #160

solotronics wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wondered why not make the H1B salary minimum the same as someone exemplary in that field ( H1B salary 1.5x the average for the position ). If someone is truly extraordinary then a company wouldn't mind paying a little extra but it would influence the average price up and not down for the field.

It already is. H1B visa holders are required to be paid more than the prevailing wage for citizens working the same SOC job classification in the same region.

>prevailing wage

This is a joke as it is currently implemented.

Re: USCIS is challenging an unusually large number of H-1B applications

#193

Post by damnyou » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 8:56 PM UTC

EdSharkey wrote: post #184

damnyou wrote: post #40

Ah yes, gotta love H-1B threads. The latent nativism among the Hacker News crowd is laid bare. Here's a radical proposal: give anyone with a clean criminal record and a job offer a green card. No limits, no $100k minimum wage, no protectionism. If you, with all the advantages that natives get (networks, language, NETWORKS), can be beat by an immigrant with zero social connections, you probably are worth less than you…

I just don't like to see people made into indentured servants. Here's my radical proposal: let H1B's change jobs once a year, as long as they're employed somewhere in the industry they're here for and their visa hasn't expired, they can stay. "Sponsoring" companies should not be allowed to keep slaves. I don't think your radical proposal makes much sense. What's the benefit to a country to basically throw its borders…

> What's the benefit to a country to basically throw its borders wide open?

More people means a bigger economy. Immigrants -- at least the ones that choose to immigrate -- are by definition risk-takers. Risk-taking is core to entrepreneurship. I hope I don't have to defend the value of entrepreneurship on this site.

We've known for thousands of years that free trade is a net positive for everyone involved. Why would free immigration be any different?

The US had open borders for centuries. It became the most powerful country in the world because of open borders.

Here's an economist far more literate than me making the case: http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-number...

(We should also welcome all the refugees we can get, of course.)

Re: USCIS is challenging an unusually large number of H-1B applications

#194

Post by neeleshs » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 8:56 PM UTC

vostok wrote: post #71

majormajor wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What US Democrats ignore is that practically every damn country in the world does this too, often to a higher degree than the US. So there's a pragmatic question of how to avoid putting yourself at a disadvantage by being comparatively overgenerous that you don't have to be a "paleoconservative" or Trump supporter, or even Republican, to be concerned about.

Many countries will grant you a visa so long as you make over a certain amount. This is much more open than the American lottery system.

Out of curiosity, which are these countries?

Re: USCIS is challenging an unusually large number of H-1B applications

#195

Post by comicjk » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 8:56 PM UTC

jarsin wrote: post #15

Terr_ wrote: post #5

The particular anecdote in this article almost seems anti-convincing to me... It suggests a job that should get challenged: > For Centro, a company in Chicago that makes technology for ad agencies [...] applied for visas for three young employees who already had the legal right to work for a limited time after graduating from college. > To Clark's eyes, the position — which consisted of writing algorithms and require…

Yup cant stand journalism today. Straight up mouthpiece for the rich. Why did they not ask the company what the wage for that position is. How many people in Chicago did they interview. Did they interview anyone over 50 who has that exact experience? Did they approach anyone currently working in similar jobs and offer them raises and other benefits to entice them over? Truth is the Company did none of those things so…

You're talking as if there are only two parties here: owners (rich) and tech workers (not rich). But tech workers are well above the average US income. The unspoken group in your argument is the consumer, who on average is poorer than the tech workers. Lowering tech wages with H1B visas helps the consumers as well as the owners, because it makes the marginal tech product less likely to fail.

You might still think that the workers have the strongest claim. But as with most protectionism, there's more to consider.

Re: USCIS is challenging an unusually large number of H-1B applications

#196

Post by dilyevsky » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 8:57 PM UTC

damnyou wrote: post #40

Ah yes, gotta love H-1B threads. The latent nativism among the Hacker News crowd is laid bare. Here's a radical proposal: give anyone with a clean criminal record and a job offer a green card. No limits, no $100k minimum wage, no protectionism. If you, with all the advantages that natives get (networks, language, NETWORKS), can be beat by an immigrant with zero social connections, you probably are worth less than you…

> The latent nativism among the Hacker News crowd is laid bare.

+1. that and sheer ignorance mixed with some American-grade entitlement. being anti-h1b is just socially acceptable (among 'liberals') way of being xenophobic.

Re: USCIS is challenging an unusually large number of H-1B applications

#197

Post by bduerst » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 8:58 PM UTC

ng12 wrote: post #39

komali2 wrote: post #13

Conservatives may generally view this as "good" regardless of the impact because (according to arguments I've heard) "the less globalization, the better." In my mind, however, it boils down to two pretty simple points: Given that (1) the US is lagging far behind every developed nation in education, and higher education in the US is prohibitively expensive compared to other developed nations, (2) the only way for the…

> I just don't understand why we wouldn't want to make it as easy as possible to steal talent Because that's not what the H1-B is. The majority of H1-B holders are the IT body shops: Cognizant, Infosys, and Tata are the top 3 by a wide margin [1]. I agree with you in principle but I think the H1-B system is not a good implementation of those ideals. I have a hard time believing it does much more than depress the wage…

>The majority of H1-B holders are the IT body shops

That's not what the data says in the article you linked.

It also lists companies such as Apple, Google, IBM, JP Morgan, etc. as part of the majority. Consultancies like Cognizant, Infosys, and Tata are not even close to the majority of H1B holders.

Re: USCIS is challenging an unusually large number of H-1B applications

#198

Post by giobox » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 8:58 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #190

giobox wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given final say on any bill rests with Trump himself (signature/veto when it reaches his desk etc), I'm not sure this distinction matters all that much. At any rate, the president is entirely free to propose a bill, and assuming he can find a congress person to back it (I'm guessing he knows a guy who knows a guy...), can have introduced in Congress. Even if Trump's team doesn't draft a new bill, the lobbying power o…

It still has to first pass the hundreds of eyes in congress, that's the primary challenge of any bill. Vetoing is relatively rare and I doubt he would veto an immigration bill coming from a republican-majority congress... That said, I never said he had zero influence, but having influence on a congressional bill is a far cry from implying he wrote and proposed it himself.

If you honestly believe the Executive in the US has this little influence on policy agenda, I'm not sure what else to say!

I think most people are capable of understanding that when we talk about "Trump" performing a legislative act, we almost never mean he literally picks up pen and paper and writes the bill himself, or even directly proposes it.

Re: USCIS is challenging an unusually large number of H-1B applications

#199

Post by dmix » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 8:58 PM UTC

rrhd wrote: post #189

dmix wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because 64% of people currently coming into the US get in because they are relatives or family of another person who was given a green card. Only 15% of people come in due to skill or a job. The bill would change the system to be more about skill/merit rather than the fact you are related by blood to someone who has skill. The reduction in numbers is a side effect of the current ratios of the existing system.…

The bill he endorsed switches to merit based immigration and cuts the number of green cards given out in half.

That's why I said it's the ideal best of both worlds. Shifting the framework from a primarily relative-based one to skills-based, ala Canada/Australia, is a still a better system regardless.

Plenty of republicans and democrats criticized the "50% reduction by 2028" projection when the original bill was announced a few months ago, so it's not entirely wishful thinking it may change in the future for the better.

Re: USCIS is challenging an unusually large number of H-1B applications

#200

Post by pm90 » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 8:59 PM UTC

masterrex wrote: post #171

friedButter wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is the class of poor Americans being displaced by H1B workers earning in excess of 100k at companies like Microsoft,Amazon,Google,etc which are constantly hiring anyways?

White males. Laugh, disregard it - but it's true. If you're a poor white male, you don't really get a lot of assistance. I don't get special grants for being white, I don't get a padded SAT score, I don't get preferential treatment - in fact, it's the opposite. Not all white males are born with a silver spoon, and they're certainly not all given an 'equal opportunity' when a "diverse" person of lesser intellect can g…

> Frankly, over time the average white American family is going to find it more and more difficult to afford higher education, as if by design, to push them out of the middle class. Meanwhile, poor non-whites will be granted scholarships based on non-whiteness.

No they wont. White females are still eligible for many of the same (gender based) diversity advantages. The majority of college students in the US are female.

Besides that, most of the wealth in this country is controlled by white families. Which makes your assertion truly pointless: unless there is some major cataclysm, white families will continue to pass on their advantages to their offspring for generations to come.