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Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

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Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#191

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

chriskanan wrote: post #6

The longer students stay in a PhD program, the less likely they want to be professors. Typically many first year students say this, but the numbers quickly drop off in later years. When I was a PhD student, I gave a few talks and blogged about this issue. I would present all these statistics in my talks about what they needed to do to be competitive, and people just absolutely hated me for it. One person said she wan…

>> Lastly, I want to add that a PhD is a degree in learning how to do research and in becoming one of the world's foremost experts on a particular topic.

I think that also goes to answer the question about motivation despite long hours and low salaries. Knowledge is its own reward, I guess.

Also, doing work that really satisfies you is a big privilege. Big big privilege. Not many people enjoy that, the world over.

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#192

Post by simonbarker87 »

santaclaus wrote: post #186
simonbarker87 wrote: post #5

When deciding to do my PhD I did so under the assumption that I wouldn't work in academia afterward. I evaluated it like a any other job offer at the time and decided that the tax free pay, coupled with the freedom to run my project how I wanted and work on what I wanted (within reason) for a fixed period of time was a better offer than a grad scheme with BAE, Nissan, Seimens etc. Doing a PhD built a large array of s…

> tax free pay Wow what? Is the US? I def got taxed -- and audited because the funding agency screwed up some paperwork -- on my PhD income, while on federal fellowships no less.

UK, paid as a stipend so tax free - not a huge amount but with an industry sponsor you can be on the equivalent of a grad scheme + a bit

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#193

Post by timdellinger »

asafira wrote: post #154

Hey, so I'm a PhD student (in Physics) at Harvard that has been looking into these issues (as graduate council president in the department), and I really don't like the bickering that occurs between (roughly speaking) die-hard academia pursuers and the others that feel there is a lack in support for non-academic jobs. Here are by far the most compelling issues that I think need to be fixed that both sides should be a…

I'm curious why you think both sides should be able to agree on those things. Professors are incentivized towards and measured by grant money and high profile publications. You're proposing that professors get on board with something that's not aligned to their goals.

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#194

Post by eli_gottlieb »

j7ake wrote: post #21

How are these odds compared to other similar ventures full of uncertainty, such as start ups ? And if the odds are comparable then why is our culture viewing start ups positively but PhD negatively ?

Because VCs own a stake in start-ups.

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#195

Post by simonbarker87 »

KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #153
simonbarker87 wrote: post #5

When deciding to do my PhD I did so under the assumption that I wouldn't work in academia afterward. I evaluated it like a any other job offer at the time and decided that the tax free pay, coupled with the freedom to run my project how I wanted and work on what I wanted (within reason) for a fixed period of time was a better offer than a grad scheme with BAE, Nissan, Seimens etc. Doing a PhD built a large array of s…

> the freedom to run my project how I wanted and work on what I wanted (within reason) for a fixed period of time was a better offer than a grad scheme with BAE, Nissan, Seimens etc. Don't know where you're doing your PhD (based on your comment about tax-free pay, I gather you're not in the States). That's not how things work in most places. You enter grad school with a vague idea of what research you want to do, and…

The department had a CASE (I think that’s right, it was 7 years ago since I left) award which funded the fairly broad topic of resilient electronics over multiple years and I was able to carve out a segment of that for high temperature energy harvesting (no point developing high temperature sensors if you can power them). I decided the direction, I determined what the project needed and so long as it worked towards high temperature energy harvesting I was good to go. My supervisor was amazing, on day 1 he said “I have two aims. 1: to get you passed and out the door in 3 years and 2: make sure you could do my job at the end of those three years” as a result of point 2 we were given a lot of breadth on self management and point 1 meant he was always around if we needed him - I never had to wait more than 6 hours to see him unless he was on holiday

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#196

Post by simonbarker87 »

arethuza wrote: post #174
KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the freedom to run my project how I wanted and work on what I wanted (within reason) for a fixed period of time was a better offer than a grad scheme with BAE, Nissan, Seimens etc. Don't know where you're doing your PhD (based on your comment about tax-free pay, I gather you're not in the States). That's not how things work in most places. You enter grad school with a vague idea of what research you want to do, and…

"BAE, Nissan, Seimens" I'd guess UK and in my experience your description is correct - people can only have a very vague idea when they start a PhD and you've got to work out the detail of what exactly you are doing with your supervisor over the first 6 months to 1 year.

Well guessed, I’ve added some further detail in my response above

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#197

Post by monkmartinez »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #183
hyperbovine wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... you work 80 hours per week and make less than ... I've read so many comments like yours, on HN and elsewhere, and invariably the argument hinges on some variation of the above sentiment. I've come to believe I just have fundamentally different values than the vast majority of people who work in industry. To answer your (friends') question, because the work is more interesting and I make plenty of money as it st…

>I've read so many comments like yours, on HN and elsewhere, and invariably the argument hinges on some variation of the above sentiment. I've come to believe I just have fundamentally different values than the vast majority of people who work in industry. Indeed! Why is the assumption always, "We all value money, so just switch to industry!"? It's like telling a public servant that if they wanted a living wage they'…

Very insightful! I agree that many people are tone deaf when it comes to the fact that other people may value something other than money, consumption, etc.

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#198

Post by chrisBob »

BeetleB wrote: post #143
ptero wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think work hours and salary have a bimodal distribution, driven by tenured / non-tenured status. My experience is in theoretical math/physics -- I got my PhD but decided not to stay in academia; there are pros and cons to both options. IME most tenured professors have to work significantly less than others for the same salary (those who work more mostly do it because they like working with grad students, not becaus…

I don't know about theoretical physics, but math professors usually have almost no burden to produce grant money. My observation is the same - they are very relaxed. In my school, the physics department was part of the College of Engineering. They had the usual 80 hour weeks because their evaluations depended on the amount of grant money they brought in.

This is related to the cost of doing experiments and running a lab. My wife is a bio-physicist and goes through $1k is supplies on a good day. In contrast you could run a math lab on almost nothing.

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#199

Post by robotresearcher »

ionforce wrote: post #189
jackpirate wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing a phd in machine learning and working at a high paying tech company is still a money losing competition due to the opportunity cost. Getting a masters and then working for 5 years gives you at least a half million dollar head start.

I like where your head is at. This is the type of math we should be doing.

On the other hand, someone has to do the PhDs in order to invent things like machine learning. That is also math we should be doing.

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#200

Post by throwawayjava »

eegilbert wrote: post #179
jartelt wrote: post #177

During my PhD studies, most students I talked to were aware of the lack of professorships available. The issue, however, was that certain departments/professors really frowned upon PhD students exploring jobs in industry (some departments were great though). I was in engineering and the professors were generally helpful with trying to connect you to people they knew in industry. Departments like Psychology were the o…

I agree with most of this. However, I might take issue with the motivation you ascribe to professors: "only car[ing] about increasing the number of academics who studied in their lab." Another explanation, one that I find myself feeling sometimes, is simply mismatched incentives. Practicing academics and students headed to industry simply have different incentives, and that can add friction to the relationship. I thi…

> is simply mismatched incentives

For me, this is kind of tautologically impossible -- the adviser's primary objective should be the success of his/her students.

I understand that makes me pretty wide-eyed and most people/places don't work like that, but I'm talking about shoulds.

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