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Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

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Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#191

Post by krotton »

Latty wrote: post #113
tracker1 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah... nothing to debate, no points of contention, nothing to see here... it's how I see it, and if you don't agree, I'll shut you down. Sounds open to new ideas and diverse opinions to me.

I keep seeing this kind of thing get said, but I'm not sure what the point is - are people really expecting people who espouse diversity to literally accept any opinion? Am I meant to work alongside a person who has literally said he wants me to die, completely seriously? So at some point, there is a line - I feel the more interesting discussion is why you feel this isn't beyond the line - presumably it comes down to…

Either: * You're hypothesizing and I don't quite get it, * haven't read the text and are basing on some misinterpretation you have seen somewhere on the internet * or you're purposefully lying (which I assume you're not).

Please, just read the text: https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-I...

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#192

Post by lliamander »

kevinburke wrote: post #59
naturalgradient wrote: post #10

What this whole episode really seems to show is how authoritarianism has crept into our lives and how incredibly difficult it is to resist it even amongst highly educated people. I would wager that none of the people calling for this person to be personally ruined, expelled from society, terminated from their job and forever vilified as an outcast would view themselves as authoritarian. Not the Tweeters shaking with…

A right to free speech doesn't mean you are also free from any consequences for that speech.. ? The Constitution allows you to say whatever you want but your employer's also free to fire you for saying it. As an example, if you say racist things to a customer, your employer should be able to fire you. I have heard people say he should get fired, but I haven't heard anyone saying he should be "expelled from society" o…

He wasn't just using his position as a Google employee as a platform for ideological ranting. He was expressing concern over how (supposed) ideological bias was affecting working conditions and the effectiveness of the company. To my understanding, that kind of speech is specifically protected against consequences (or at least, protected from firing).

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#193

Post by TheTruestKyle »

JSONwebtoken wrote: post #93
int_19h wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not the Ex-Google guy with his medium rant about how people would punch him in the face and he would understand. Could you give a link to that rant?

It's funny that I read past this line without even thinking about how unusual it is that it needs a source. I've read so many blogposts and tweets about how it's justifiable to punch people in the face over specific disagreements that I'm completely desensitized to the hilarious image of grown, educated adults lashing out just because they're losing an argument. It seems like every time I make a politically controver…

As a person who has been held at gunpoint, threatened to be stabbed, and punched in the face while growing up in a hostile environment, this is hilarious to me.

Odds are, these people have never been in physical conflict before and let me tell you, you don't know how you will react until it happens or as Mike Tyson puts it, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face."

Having a black belt in martial arts helped calm those nerves of threatening fights with people you don't know.

People please be careful. What I have seen growing up, I am now seeing on the internet. Sometimes you run into the wrong person and it might not end well...

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#194

Post by yellowapple »

amyjess wrote: post #112
slg wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue it is the opposite of authoritarian, it is mob rule. No one person or centralized authority deemed this person's actions as unacceptable. It was the majority of the community as a whole that deemed his actions as unacceptable. That is certainly a scary thing to see in action, but I think it is a different thing entirely than an authoritarian regime.

I call that society's natural immune system.

If that's society's natural immune system, then my non-medical-professional opinion is that society has lupus.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#195

Post by tanilama »

trequartista wrote: post #69

Google is in a no-win situation here. Fire the guy - get these kind of reactions about not listening to opposing voices. Not fire the guy - incendiary reactions from the general public. If Google had not fired the guy, a large majority of women (and men) in Google wouldn't want this guy (as brilliant as he may be) in their teams - that would create an unnecessarily hostile and uncomfortable workplace.

This. I honestly think Google has no choice but firing him. That is the least damage they could manage to contain. If this guy's identity didn't get leaked, they might have an option to relocate him, but since this is already global event, there is very little room for a comprise.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#196

Post by brighteyes »

Latty wrote: post #113
tracker1 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah... nothing to debate, no points of contention, nothing to see here... it's how I see it, and if you don't agree, I'll shut you down. Sounds open to new ideas and diverse opinions to me.

I keep seeing this kind of thing get said, but I'm not sure what the point is - are people really expecting people who espouse diversity to literally accept any opinion? Am I meant to work alongside a person who has literally said he wants me to die, completely seriously? So at some point, there is a line - I feel the more interesting discussion is why you feel this isn't beyond the line - presumably it comes down to…

Of course no one expects you to tolerate every point of view.

But we should tolerate moderate views across the political spectrum. The document was wrong in some points, but overall largely fit in with mainstream conservative politics. Many centrists also agree with parts of the document.

I think it's ok to fire someone for being a Nazi or (as in your example) issuing a death threat. I don't think it's ok for someone to be fired for being a progressive or a conservative.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#197

Post by canoebuilder »

gjulianm wrote: post #103
canoebuilder wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"proportional representation of the population" metric? Is there some reason the social disrupters only get all frothy mouthed about this in certain areas? Like shouldn't we spend much more time going after the NBA, Fishing, Logging, Elementary teachers, Nurses, etc. because these industries are far more out of "diversity balance." Are people clamoring for a "proportional representation of the population" metric prep…

I think diversity is not exactly an end in and on itself, but a way to reduce general inequality. Increasing the number of woman in fishing, or logging, or coal mining is not going to have as much effect on the general economic/social power of women as doing the same on bigger, richer industries such as programming. As resources are limited, you want to be as efficient as possible and that will probably shift the foc…

I think diversity is not exactly an end in and on itself, but a way to reduce general inequality.

So it's basically a shakedown.

general economic/social power of women

History and stats don't back up the image of women as some horribly oppressed group at least in western society.

And I am tired seeing this pitted as some kind of battle. The vast majority of people don't feel this way. Men and women are meant to, and do work together for their own mutual benefit and the benefit of succeeding generations.

And they work together in complementary ways, it is silly and destructive to think of the sexes as interchangeable.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#198

Post by brighteyes »

gobugat wrote: post #45
fwn wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Such conflicts are not won over peaceful arguments. They are. At least that's how civilised societies would handle it. It could be a textbook example of a decision a civil discourse could approach.

It is not how the US handled the Civil Rights Movement: MLK was called a terrorist. Neither is it how the apartheid was taken on in South Africa. Or any major social improvement: strikes, demonstrations and struggles were necessary. Playing the passivity card is, at least, dragging down the struggle.

Strikes, demonstrations, etc. are useful tools. Blacklists and firing people for political opinions are not, they often cause more harm than help.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#199

Post by BertPhoo »

jorgemf wrote: post #136
ithilglin909 wrote: post #52

Here, here. I’m a software engineer who happens to be a woman. Mr. Damore's piece didn’t offend me at all. There were parts I agreed with and parts I didn’t agree with. I’m more bothered by Google’s response(s) which seemed to reveal an incredible lack of critical reading ability, and far more disturbed by the levels of harshly enforced group-think that seem to increasingly dominate supposedly intelligent circles.

I wish there were more people like you. People able to have a better critical reading and don't fall quickly in easy offenses that might not even exists.

"Not bad for a girl"

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#200

Post by jorgemf »

trequartista wrote: post #69

Google is in a no-win situation here. Fire the guy - get these kind of reactions about not listening to opposing voices. Not fire the guy - incendiary reactions from the general public. If Google had not fired the guy, a large majority of women (and men) in Google wouldn't want this guy (as brilliant as he may be) in their teams - that would create an unnecessarily hostile and uncomfortable workplace.

I think Google could have done things better. First, do not fire the guy the next day the article is in the public. Second, taking time and create a committee to evaluate the situation and decide the actions to take. Third, express in public they official opinion as a company and what they really do in the diversity programs (I still not sure if they have positive discrimination or/and just increase the pool of candidates from minorities). Forth, fire the guy or arrange any deal with him if that is what they have to do giving him an option to make clear any statement he did. I think the guy is intelligent enough to know the impact of the article he wrote and would leave the company by himself to avoid more internal conflicts even when a lot of people think he is right.
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