Live data from Hacker News

I'm not a Woman in Tech

communequation.wordpress.com

191–200 of 621 posts

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#191

edit Why did my comment get dislodged from being underneath another comment that I was replying to? It's now showing as a stand-alone comment under the thread. ------------------------------------------- I'm doing a similar thing. I stopped posting anything personal on Facebook about a year ago and I never post to Twitter. I'll never go back to posting personal thoughts on social media, not under any circumstances. I…

So the only place you post opinions is where you're protected by anonymity? That's a rough way to live. Have you considered that if you don't feel open enough to speak your opinions in public, maybe they should be challenged?

I disagree with your position on feminism, as it is a blanket statement which you would not want applied to yourself in an opposite position.

As for the left's beliefs on illegal immigration, again, blanket statement. I'm a pretty far leftist, but I agree that unfettered immigration isn't an ideal state. Where we may diverge is asserting causation to where we are today. We spent decades looking the other way as more and more people were crossing our borders because we had an economic benefit to do so — cheap labor. There were jobs we didn't want to pay citizens to do (farming, manual labor, home labor, etc.), and there were thousands of people willing to do them under the table because it was a better offer than they got at home.

We could have curbed this issue as it happened by removing the incentive. We could have penalized homes and businesses hiring undocumented labor. We could have enforced tax codes on all of the under the table money changing hands. We allowed entire industries to become dependent on unlawful cheap taxed labor. Today, we can't stop. Georgia tried to enforce above the board labor for one season and lost a harvest (https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/05/17/the-law-of-...). Cutting undocumented labor today would have disastrous consequences to our economy.

So, after decades of benefitting our economy, keeping food, hotels, restaurants, and numerous other service industries more affordable, we decide to start deporting? Hilarious. For all the talk of the "send them back" crowd, I don't think anyone is really thinking through what it means.

So yeah, I agree, we need to control illegal immigration. We also need to be realistic on the stupid situation we've created for ourselves by wanting cheap stuff.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#192
I mean, how nice for you? This article seems to be very much about how there isn't a problem for people like the OP, because people who don't feel they benefit from all-women's tech groups are perfectly free not to go to them.

I attend both all-women(/trans/femme) tech meetups and broader meetups. I get different benefits from each. I don't think anyone advocates for a world in which women in tech don't ever have to associate with anyone else, and most of us work in male-dominated spaces to start with, so it seems a little nonsensical to posit some sort of hyper-separation/man-avoidance or victimization in woman-run groups (many of whom run events that are not woman-only as well).

I find it productive to have spaces where the express goal is to uplift women in tech and to center issues in tech specific to women. The support and comfort level in these groups is often fantastic.

When men at other meetups stop asking questions like "oh, a women's python group? Can I come? I'm into that kind of woman" then let's talk about how we are in some sort of a world where tech groups for women are somehow counterproductive.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#193

>I want inclusivity, not exclusivity. Thank you. I find myself feeling the exact same way as a black man in this industry, and cringe at "minority only" events and clubs. We don't need token inclusion and separate praise for being "brave" and "fighting against the odds". We need a world where those things are irrelevant.

Watching from the sidelines as a white male, I have to say that I find these kinds of situations so confusing. Some people want these differences to be highlighted, while others like yourself want the complete opposite. I'm left believing that my only choice is to have no opinion. Though I lean towards your stance across the board.

As a fresh US immigrant from the middle of Europe yet visually passing as an average white man, I haven't even shared the style of upbringing that people assume I did, and yet I lean closer to the opinion expressed above because I fear that a determined person with an agenda can find a way to use my story or opinions to illustrate their point and paint me and broad classes of people as problematic in the process.

I empathize with those who've also turned to self-censorship for fear of being branded as part of a the problem. I want to have the tough conversations, but not at the expense of being made a public example for holding opinions that are neither hateful nor malicious, just colored by my origins and journey through life: the exact same factors that others advocate taking into account.

The whole thing is really unfortunate: people holding moderate (and in many ways, mainstream) opinions are withdrawing from the public discourse, which I don't believe is conducive to satisfactory progress.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue you're still at liberty to do it - you just have to be willing to accept any social prices associated with it. Other people enjoy the same liberties that you do, they have every right to think and say whatever they will about you due to your speech. Of course, this is really only a significant issue on a public forum, on which you can post pseudonymously and still gain any benefits of discussion without pay…

>Id argue you're still at liberty to do it - you just have to be willing to accept any social prices associated with it. You can say that about almost anything. I'm at liberty to murder my neighbor, I just have to accept the price.

I'm talking in terms of moral rights - which not necessarily everyone will agree on - but there are some generally accepted ones. For example, murder would violate your neighbors right to life.

Denying your neighbor the ability to speak out against your opinions violates their right to free speech. If you don't like it, argue back.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Free speech goes both ways. The only people I see saying things like 'free speech is dead', are usually the ones who want to say ignorant things and get away with it.

I'll file that away alongside, "The only people who care about privacy are those with something to hide".

Except that is completely different. If you throw a protest, other people have a right to counter-protest.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you are approaching this right. You are painting an entire group of people under the same brush... Also, feminism is promoting equality.

I disagree that feminism is promoting equality. I think I'm approaching it exactly right. Your response is conceptually exactly why I no longer post opinions as myself on social media now. If this were a personal discussion on Facebook or Twitter, the left's censorship/control attack wave would be rolling in right now, calling me countless labels (instead, here you'll just get downvotes, your life won't be ruined and…

> Your response is conceptually exactly why I no longer post opinions as myself on social media now.

That's not a free-speech problem. In a discussion about free-speech, you broadcasted your particular personal opinions regarding notoriously controversial topics and castigate "the left" as anti-freespeech, and then when someone responds to you with a civil disagreement, you exclaim that is what's killing free speech. This is how free-speech works, it means that people can respond freely to the statements you made freely, where is the problem?

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by "the left", and who do you consider to be part of it?

It's fairly vague (and I'm ok with that), just as my use of "right" in another post is. I'm going to continue using it even if it generates a silly over-reaction by some people on the left and right. There's an aggressive coalition on the left that now likes to use labels as a control vector for stopping free speech (any speech they disagree with in fact). The major social media platforms for example have all taken u…

The reason I ask is that it seems like you might be using a circular definition here. You say "the left likes to use labels to stop free speech", but have you just defined "the left" in your head to mean "anyone who uses labels to stop free speech"?

I do think using such vague terms in general is at best useless, but it's especially pointless when you redefine labels to fit whatever you're trying to argue against.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#198
A theory: Women-only groups aren’t just “Women-only”, they also exclude women with these beliefs. But this is far from obvious, so women at these group gatherings see only themselves, and it becomes an echo chamber where they believe they represent all women’s views on this subject.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#199
This whole piece strikes me as rambling and misguided.

> “Woman in tech” is just another label I don’t need

The author agrees there is a shortage of women in tech and that it is a problem, yet how can you address a problem of underrepresented groups in tech without talking about those groups and referring to them through the use of labels? Does she really think we don't need these labels?

> I don’t want your ‘exclusively for women’ support groups

Those support groups are an attempt at solving the problem. Is it possible those groups are helpful to some women, even if not for you?

> I don’t want your special award

Same as above. This is an attempt at fixing the problem. Maybe it's not effective and kind of dumb/patronizing in some cases. Is it really where you should directing your frustrations though. No, if you care about the problem you should directing your frustrations at the root causes.

> It’s hurtful when you say “we need to solve the problem of women in tech” and “Maria, you’re a woman in tech” in the same breath…

I really did not understand the author's point here. People look to women in tech as pioneers and sources of solutions for getting more women into tech. It is quite natural to bring up women currently in tech, when thinking of ways to recruit more women into tech.

I get the author's point, that a lot of this stuff doesn't apply to her. She's comfortable in her job and doesn't need support groups or awards. It almost feels like bragging on her part, in the guise of acting annoyed at all this stuff that she doesn't want/need. Good for her, but not every woman can be like her, and shooting down attempts at solutions while offering none of her own is pretty shitty imo.

Post reply on HN