Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Crony capitalism may be cannibalizing productive capitalism in the U.S.

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 263 posts

Re: Crony capitalism may be cannibalizing productive capitalism in the U.S.

#191

Post by harryh »

Retric wrote: post #187
harryh wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) I expect that if we included state and local taxes the story would be much the same, though I don't have a graph handy. You could be right I suppose. 2) I think we mostly agree here. There have definitely been meaningful changes both up and down (on the order of 20%) over the years depending on both economic and political changes. However, when you look over a 50 year timespan (everything post WW2 basically), you…

2) He was not talking about total recites. And the top tax rates are a very different story: https://www.cch.com/WBOT2013/029IncomeTaxRates.asp PS: IMO, a ~1 to 2% AMT on all wealth per year would be incredibly beneficial. But, there is currently about zero chances of that ever happening.

My understanding is that those top marginal rates didn't matter as much as you might think because they mostly shifted forms of compensation. The data we'd really want to investigate this question is what % of taxes were paid by various income groups (top .1%, 1%, 5%, 10%) over time. See how much that share has changed with various policy changes.

I can't seem to find a relevant graph on fred.stlouisfed.org though. :(

Re: Crony capitalism may be cannibalizing productive capitalism in the U.S.

#192

Post by leggomylibro »

noonespecial wrote: post #144
leggomylibro wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of reminds me of that episode of Always Sunny in Philadelphia where Danny DeVito's character comes out of retirement to save his former company. "So what do we make here, Frank?" "What d'you mean? We make money." "Right, yes, but what do we actually create?" "We create wealth." "Okay, but like, what do we produce, what do we manufacture, what do we design?" "Manufacture? Leave that to the c&$%^s, we produce prof…

It takes 2.5 weeks minimum to get the product from Taobao in the USA. The extra money is for getting it in 2 days. Also, remember that most of that "markup" is for shipping, Amazon fees, and taxes. You can't ship those items for less than $2 even with Amazon FBA (remember, with Prime its the seller whos paying for shipping, not magic Amazon elves). The Taobao guy paid $0.18 to ship the same from China (there's a long…

For Amazon, it sure sounds like it is. Arbitrage facilitation FTW.

Edit: But you're right, of course. I do still buy those packs when I want them soon.

Re: Crony capitalism may be cannibalizing productive capitalism in the U.S.

#193

Post by somecontext »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #142
dmoy wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At some point though, if major world powers never go to war with each other, then the F35 can't really fail insofar as it will never actually see combat. It reminds me of the sci fi novels Dread Empire's Fall, in which the galactic civilization's ship fleet has never fought a battle in thousands of years, so nobody can actually know how to do it, and they don't know if a certain tactic, ship, etc is really a failure…

Historical anecdote: at the start of the U.S. Civil War, only two sitting Union generals had ever seen combat (back in the Mexican-American War 20 years back), and the top general had gotten so fat by then he couldn't even ride a horse.

For some context, the document http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/075/75-1/CMH_Pub_75-1... indicates on page 50 that in December 1860, "on the Eve of War", the army had a total strength of 18k men, of which 1k were commissioned officers, of which four were generals.

A different source ("Armies South, Armies North" by Alan Axelrod, also author of the more compellingly-named "Generals South, Generals North") provides more detail, including names: Winfield Scott, William Harney, David Twiggs, and John Wool. This and other sources also include Joseph Johnston, then quartermaster general of the US Army, as a fifth general. There were also two more brevetted generals: Albert Johnston (no relation to Joseph) and Newman Clarke.

Maj. Gen. Winfield Scott (the commanding general of the US Army) was 74 years old and indeed unable to ride a horse. However, all seven of the generals had seen combat. In particular, four served in the War of 1812, all served in the Mexican-American War, and all served in the Indian Wars. With the exception of Joseph Johnston, all of them even served in war as generals (at least brevet, but usually full).

Re: Crony capitalism may be cannibalizing productive capitalism in the U.S.

#194

Post by Shivetya »

grasshopperpurp wrote: post #183
Shivetya wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

taxes in the US are far more progressive than they used to be. there are however many new avenues to follow to increase wealth. those below a certain income level are more likely to get eaten up by embedded taxes, regulatory fees and government service fees. then throw in we are bombarded every day continuously to buy this,buy that, go here, do that. We get told every day of wonderful stuff available for pennies or d…

"taxes in the US are far more progressive than they used to be." How do you figure? Between 1936 and 1989, the tax rate for the top income bracket varied between 63% and 91%. https://qz.com/74271/income-tax-rates-since-1913/

because tax rate on income is meaningless when they don't have income and when tax rates were high their incomes vanished. that is the true history and true facts

Re: Crony capitalism may be cannibalizing productive capitalism in the U.S.

#195

Post by sadfjhsdf66 »

pm90 wrote: post #118
sadfjhsdf66 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the monopolies have exerted pressure on public education, including universities, to churn out advocates for the corporations bottom line. With no basis in reality, we've brainwashed people to believe the bottom lines of the elite are to be protected. That's the outcome sought of our educational system. It fascinates me how, on the one hand, we complain about how lazy people are. How much inducement the prole…

This is unfortunately too close to the truth. One thing I would like to add though is that despite the fruits of labor accruing disproportionately to the elite, the system has managed to lift up everyone else as well, right? So the system does work, and I wonder what would happen if it was changed to be more egalitarian....

Sure, but that's not a unique byproduct to this system. In fact, I think an argument can be made that it's a designed byproduct. We could uplift many more, but we don't. A little bit of uplift, but not too much, or the wheels come off for the power brokers.

There are a other systems that we have at least some historical evidence to show will produce even better outcomes for the majority.

The problem is those are undermined almost as quickly as they are brought up. See post about brainwashing people to protect the bottom line.

People point to places like Venezuela and USSR as examples of socialism not working, for example. While ignoring that both those states were not managed by the working class (as classical socialism typically calls for), but elite masters, their bank rollers, and external forces pushing them to abandon their ways for western capitalism (economic sanctions, cutting off access to necessary trade).

Re: Crony capitalism may be cannibalizing productive capitalism in the U.S.

#196

Post by pnutjam »

balls187 wrote: post #35
dreamdu5t wrote: post #11

You can't get $10k to start a hot dog stand but you can get billions of dollars with literally no plan for profit if you're already rich or seeking VC. But want to start a normal business? No capital for you! And your taxes will pay for the banks and VCs when they screw up.

I get that this is hyperbole, but: 1. There are plenty of US Government (i.e. tax payer funded) programs to help people get "normal" ideas off the ground. From grants, to loans, the money is there. It's hard to imagine someone destined for success being stopped by not being able to raise $10k. $10k in credit card debt is nothing for the average american. 2. Success breeds success. If you're rich, you may already have…

$10k would be life changing to many American familes.

Re: Crony capitalism may be cannibalizing productive capitalism in the U.S.

#197

Post by Paul-ish »

Terr_ wrote: post #64
jackcosgrove wrote: post #20

The only way this will end is limits on campaign contributions and other kinds of bribery. The returns on lobbying are astronomical compared to the returns on productivity improvements.

I think the linchpin is actually our voting system. It strongly encourages the existence of only two parties that are always trying to split the difference, and that's the scenario which is very friendly to institutional bribery and regulatory capture.

Countries with a system that allows for many parties still end up forming coalitions though. It isn't clear that the problem goes away.

Re: Crony capitalism may be cannibalizing productive capitalism in the U.S.

#198

Post by bostonscott »

svachalek wrote: post #167
bostonscott wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the endgame of all capitalists. Actual capitalists, limited in number as they are, prefer free markets (e.g. no cronyism) because they'll make more money that way over time. Opportunists are the ones who thrive when things are rigged. They can't survive on their own. But yes, many capitalists (and non-capitalists alike) "buy" regulatory advantages. Some leverage their dollars (buying) Some leverage their num…

> Actual capitalists, limited in number as they are, prefer free markets (e.g. no cronyism) because they'll make more money that way over time. Citation needed.

You doubt people act in their rational self-interest?

Smart, hard-working people who consistently exercise good judgement, prefer merit-based systems.

They do better in merit-based systems than systems that reward those who are born lucky, who have access, or who cheat and lie.

Is a citation really needed?

Re: Crony capitalism may be cannibalizing productive capitalism in the U.S.

#199

Post by refurb »

mcguire wrote: post #186
refurb wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

any money paid by the very wealthy had to go somewhere, and that somewhere was the masses What? The size of gov't has only increased over time. That's money being pulled out of the economy through taxes. If anything redistribution has drastically increased over time.

" That's money being pulled out of the economy through taxes. " That money goes straight back into the economy.

That's not the point. The OP said "In the olden days, the main force balancing this was taxation.".

My comment was taxation is higher now than it's ever been.

Re: Crony capitalism may be cannibalizing productive capitalism in the U.S.

#200

Post by dragonwriter »

bostonscott wrote: post #198
svachalek wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Actual capitalists, limited in number as they are, prefer free markets (e.g. no cronyism) because they'll make more money that way over time. Citation needed.

You doubt people act in their rational self-interest? Smart, hard-working people who consistently exercise good judgement, prefer merit-based systems. They do better in merit-based systems than systems that reward those who are born lucky, who have access, or who cheat and lie. Is a citation really needed?

> You doubt people act in their rational self-interest?

Yes the rational choice model is well-established to be false.

They may act in their perceived self-interest, but rational self-interest involves a lot more than that.

Post reply on HN