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US quits Paris climate pact

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191–200 of 413 posts

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you company be possible without any sort of government support(federal/local/etc), financial or legal?

Would oil companies be possible without the US military defending them in the rogue states they usually extract their oil from? And that's not even considering the direct subsidies they receive.

Don't forget the massive indirect subsidies of being allowed to pollute without having to pay for the damage this causes to other people's health and property.

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#192
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you believe the USA should be involved at all on the international stage, this creation of new public knowledge is a big detriment to that end. The belief that the U.S. needs to be involved in the international stage is based on the fallacious assumption that international cooperation can fix climate change. There is no scenario in which that happens. Without fundamental technological leaps, we'd have to decreas…

It is hard to implement a technological fix without political will. Politcal can reserve funding, can align businesses and academics, can make that technological windfall we haven't yet invented a little mote likely. What if there is no technological solution, or we fail to find it? Having political agreement and unity to fallback on is a good thing. Even if we do something terrible to the planet, we can mitigate tha…

Trump is the antithesis of unified political will. He's a symptom of a deeply divided society.

The focus on finding consensus and political will on climate change is putting the cart before the horse. There's no consensus or deal making to be had with this degree of division and anger.

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually it has to do with the Republicans desire to be self-sufficient in all maters science. They want all scientific matters to be determined by their own sphere of influence. This allows them to deny reality for any matter of science whether it's global climate, abortion, education, gun control, economics and any other issue which requires science to produce evidence in order to select the proper course of action…

I agree that the dynamics you describe account for some of the reason Trump's base is primed to latch onto him. But as far as Trump himself goes, he's not really a Republican. He is solely concerned with receiving praise and feeling tough. There is no master plan; that is really all there is to it.

> But as far as Trump himself goes, he's not really a Republican.

Yes, he is. He may not have a particular devotion to an ideology you'd like to pretend defines the Republican Party, but the US electoral system structurally produces duopoly between parties too broad to have coherent ideology.

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#194
post #86
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, China has more than four times as many citizens.

And therein lies the problem.

A fellow HackerNews reader had a great quote, I don't remember the source.

You're basically complaining that China has too many people and would presumably want that some of them wouldn't exist.

His quote was: "If you think a certain group of people shouldn't exist, how do you select that group of people? And how do you know that you, yourself, shouldn't he a part of that group?".

China's population is a fact. In the end, you can't argue against facts. And in their current circumstances, China, a much poorer per capita country than the US, is willing to sacrifice a bit of their profits for long term stability.

The US is basically eating its own seed corn.

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#195
post #76
post #51

This is one of those situations where you should be shaking your head, even if you're a climate change denying conservative or a fussil fuel industrial interest. The Paris pact was pretty toothless: it was a step forward, but heavily aspirational. Indeed, one of the stated complaints of conservatives was that it did nothing to enforce compliance. The Trump Administration could have just as well ignored it without for…

Yes, the Paris pact was toothless. It was never going to work, just like Kyoto didn't work. So what's wrong with pulling out of it? Consternation over the Paris accord is, in my opinion, elitist liberal virtue signaling. (Here in the DC/MD/VA area, everyone will complain about this move at Starbucks sipping on lattes while driving one hour each way to work from their McMansion in the exurbs. God forbid we do anything…

Complaining about people at Starbucks sipping on lattes is conservative virtue signaling.

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#196
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is because the previous president decided to unilaterally bind the country to the agreement rather than seek treaty ratification from Congress. It is a risk that ruling by executive decree entails.

Other countries don't care about post-facto rationalizations by partisans to demonize the other side in domestic policies. The USA cannot be trusted as an ally. That is the takeaway here. Saying that "but Obama's worse than Trump!!!" isn't changing that and is entirely besides the point. ETA: And, for what its worth, the Senate ratified NATO, and that hasn't stopped Trump and Republicans from doing their utmost to sa…

Note that I think mostly Republicans seem to be on board with NATO, Trump is outside the mainstream of all the parties there.

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#197

Can someone give me pros and cons of this move (serious responses only)? Thanks

Pros: the US was signing up for a _minimum_ of $100B/yr in foreign aid to help others implement the accords. When you're up to your ears in debt that's kind of stupid. Cons: estimates say that the climate will be warmer by 0.3 degrees Celsius by 2100. Assuming estimates are in fact right (which they historically haven't been) this could have devastating effects elsewhere in the world.

For anyone taking this comment seriously: verify the numbers for yourself. The poster has given the lower bound of the confidence interval in positing that we will see 0.3C warming by 2100. The latest assessment puts warming at 3.7C (6.67F!) under the "Business as Usual" RCP8.5 scenario.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_Concentration_P...

Edit -- not to mention that climate models are quite good at reproducing the observed changes:

https://www.skepticalscience.com/Climate-Models-Show-Remarka...

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#198
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is because the previous president decided to unilaterally bind the country to the agreement rather than seek treaty ratification from Congress. It is a risk that ruling by executive decree entails.

Other countries don't care about post-facto rationalizations by partisans to demonize the other side in domestic policies. The USA cannot be trusted as an ally. That is the takeaway here. Saying that "but Obama's worse than Trump!!!" isn't changing that and is entirely besides the point. ETA: And, for what its worth, the Senate ratified NATO, and that hasn't stopped Trump and Republicans from doing their utmost to sa…

> Other countries don't care about post-facto rationalizations by partisans to demonize the other side in domestic policies.

Which is a key reason why international cooperation is so dangerous. It's insensitive to domestic politics and law.

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#199
post #74
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched the announcement w/o knowing much about it. He justified the decision by saying: - We're paying 100b/year when other developed countries do not have to. - Spending on that is unaccounted for. - The impact will be (only) a 2/10 Celcius reduction in temperature by 2100 - The positive impact by 2030 is the equivalent of what China pollutes in 14 days. Just stating what was said. I don't know which are facts.

According to Michael E. Mann, in 2100 it's +4.5C with no action, +3.5C with just the Paris Accord, and +1.8C with ratcheting up. ( https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DBQpulkWAAE2mrc.jpg )

Would that be the 'Nobel prize winner' Dr Mann, who massaged the so-called hockey stick data leading to all this climate change/global warming hysteria in the first place? Hardly a credible source of anything IMHO.

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#200
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you overstate the case when you say that the US's leadership position has been destroyed. It has certainly been damaged, but the US is still one of the largest, most populous and richest countries in the world. It will have a big seat at the world negotiating table for quite some time no matter what.

> ... and richest countries That's considering $18 trillion of its debt?

The net worth of the US is around $124 trillion. That is after subtracting all debts and other liabilities (which are significantly larger than $18T).
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