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Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#191

Post by dannypgh »

cabalamat wrote: post #13

It's because Russia isn't a particularly nice place to live. From the article: > Most of the girls we talked to from other countries had a slightly playful approach to Stem, whereas in Russia, even the very youngest were extremely focused on the fact that their future employment opportunities were more likely to be rooted in Stem subjects. They do tech because it provides a way of getting a good life. In the West, wh…

> This, incidentally, blows out of the water the argument made by some feminists that women don't do STEM because of conditioning in nasty patriarchal societies.

It does no such thing, because there is no universally agreed upon metric by which we can rank the degree of any given form of "conditioning in nasty patriarchal socities." It could simply be the case that, in this regard / with your example, this is a dimension in which the West is more patriarchal than Iran.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#192

Post by Chris2048 »

CalRobert wrote: post #169
futun wrote: post #121

Silly Americans. You are always prohibited from talking about the differences between men and women. Americans think that men and women are exactly the same except for genitalia. We Russians don't. It's an example of primitive, anti-scientific thinking driven by America's cult-like obsession with gender equality. Historically speaking, placing "equality of outcome" over "equality of opportunity" destroys nations. Ame…

If you make a poor argument with emotionally loaded words (e.g. "primitive"), and then phrase it such that downvoting is a vindication of your argument, you are not contributing to the discussion. You're just lazy.

The burden's on you to show it's a poor argument. I can just as easily state that it's a great argument.

Also, I think it's clear that OP expects down-votes for "going against the gender narrative", rather than the incidental swipes at America; That said, it is baiting to provoke in this style, rather than stick to the point.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#193

Post by kutkloon7 »

to_bpr wrote: post #189

I'd be really interested to see some thorough research into the possible factors behind this. I've personally zero experience with Russian culture beyond what makes it to the media. From a Western perspective, we've a society that promotes and idolizes women based on their looks and sex appeal. Young girls look up to and subscribe to the snapchats of people like the Kardashians and other transient entities with a ver…

I can't speak for all of Russia, but most Russian women I've encountered seem to have an even stronger desire to look good than many Western women.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#194

Post by [deleted] »

paganel wrote: post #125
mynegation wrote: post #57

As a Russian who got university education in Russia and worked in both Russia and Canada, I can confirm that the reasons are both cultural and economic. First, for the big part Soviet Russia did not have a sizeable percentage of stay-at-home mothers: women were _expected_ to work, childcare was absolutely free, tight living conditions made multi-generational families, when retired grand-parents took care of children,…

> women were _expected_ to work, I also grew up in Eastern Europe in the '80s, and this is what most of present-day Westerners don't get. And women were not supposed to hold only "women-related" jobs, for example my aunt was an industrial-crane operator.

[deleted]

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#195

Post by Chris2048 »

nnfy wrote: post #167
futun wrote: post #121

Silly Americans. You are always prohibited from talking about the differences between men and women. Americans think that men and women are exactly the same except for genitalia. We Russians don't. It's an example of primitive, anti-scientific thinking driven by America's cult-like obsession with gender equality. Historically speaking, placing "equality of outcome" over "equality of opportunity" destroys nations. Ame…

So absurd that even in a community like this, one is not allowed to suggest inconvenient answers to certain questions.

I'd agree sensitive topic require thoughtful posts, but the epedemic of "I'll down-vote because I'm emotionally offended by the conclusion" rather than discussion on topics is a shame.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#196

Post by karrotwaltz »

Pharylon wrote: post #126
SilverSlash wrote: post #15

Maybe because like men all over the world, Russian women aren't specially "encouraged" to go into tech? Maybe nobody has to tell them or tell anyone to 'like science'. People just do. The same argument goes for women in science. Albert Einstein was told he wouldn't amount to much. Doesn't mean he 'got discouraged' and quit physics. That's not why we do science - for public appreciation - we do it because we love it n…

Yes, because each one of us is an island, and we're not influenced by society at all as it is. I have a two year old and I can tell you fighting against pinky-princess girl culture is a battle. As a parent, it's you vs basically the rest of society that sends a million little cues about what girls are supposed to do. I had this conversation with my daughter the other morning: Daughter: I want to be a boy when I grow…

Honest question, where do you think your daughter learned this expectation from? Medias/advertising, other childs' parents...?

How would one go about preventing this from happenning without segregating the child?

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#197

Post by BrandonMarc »

moopling wrote: post #52
cabalamat wrote: post #13

It's because Russia isn't a particularly nice place to live. From the article: > Most of the girls we talked to from other countries had a slightly playful approach to Stem, whereas in Russia, even the very youngest were extremely focused on the fact that their future employment opportunities were more likely to be rooted in Stem subjects. They do tech because it provides a way of getting a good life. In the West, wh…

Just because representation is better in one patrialchal society doesn't really say anything. There may for instance be competing factors, for instance financial (as you have literally just suggested). This doesn't really give any evidence for or against the argument that women avoid stem because of conditioning.

Indeed. It's an apples-to-oranges comparison. I'd be curious to know about other factors that are related to life choices and opportunities, such as:

... what's the social safety network like? Is there welfare? Are there government programs that will help with housing / food / healthcare for a single mom (working or not)? This absolutely influences things.

... what's the legal marital environment like? Are the laws regarding divorce more or less favorable to women in one place vs the other (property, child support, alimony, allowance of 'no-fault' divorces, burden of proof, etc)? This will also influence choices.

In both of these tangents, actual risk and perceived risk in various life choices is different based on the answer to those questions.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#198

Post by korzun »

usrusr wrote: post #118

Provocative idea: maybe modern Russia is just bad at getting men into tech, so that a relative large part of the existing STEM inertia left over from Soviet days falls on women? Not saying that it is true, but from my outside perspective, it could be part of the puzzle. Also, the Soviet era contained a lot of progressives in terms of gender roles. That is easy to forget with today's stereotypes of male-exclusive budd…

Provocative idea: Maybe nobody in Russia cares about the whole gender thing and (surprise!) women can like and study things they want.

You sound like a caveman: 'Maybe woman are learning to drive cars because men can't drive anymore?!'

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#199

Post by ralfd »

madengr wrote: post #36
drittich wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>STEM just does not pay over the long term. Whaa? What's your definition of pay? Anyway, IMO no prodding needed - expose the child to a wide variety of things, and then help them find and nurture their passion.

$100k - $200k long term (ages 30 - 67). STEM has initial high pay, but tops out by middle age. Late middle age, or 55+, and you are a target for elimination. My coworkers daughter and her husband are both accountants. In their mid 30's they are doing much better than any STEM majors. They will both be firm partners by 40. +200k salaries for two people over 27 years (not that they'd work to 67 anyway). I know of a mec…

The median wage in the US is $39k for full time workers. You are speaking about people at the top or people who lucked out.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#200

Post by swampangel »

67726e wrote: post #165
nnfy wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is the inane assumption, which is now taken as a fact (without rigorous substantiation) that any male heavy gender ratio is a result of bias by white men (not even necessarily the majority, mind you, we simply ignore fields where women are over represented). Not to mention the conflation of equality of opportunity with equality of achievement. In our society it has become a taboo to even consider that str…

Where are the campaigns for female construction and sanitation worker parity? How about male nursing? HR? Nothing? Surely those fields would benefit from equal representation and male insight. Yet we have some kind of crusade against the tech industry. Oh well, I should just shut up since I'm a straight, white, male. I'm just oppressing you poor souls.

Programs for women in trades:

http://www.careersinconstruction.ca/en/why-construction/oppo...

Programs/orgs for men in nursing:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14165427

Tech is not unique, but for some of us in the industry it seems logical to focus our attention here.

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