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Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

npr.org

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Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#191

Post by lawnchair_larry »

uuilly wrote: post #134
throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

Thank you. I work in Ag and it seems crazy that someone should be able to buy a machine like those Deere sells and be able to modify the controls SW. Can United Airlines update the controls SW on Boeing 747? I'm not sure how tractors are any different.

Can confirm that United Airlines directly employs aircraft mechanics who are free to service as they see fit, and they use hardware that is not DRM'd to the plane.

Can also confirm that aircrafts can do more damage than tractors if things go wrong.

Like the JDs in the article that are so complex that they can steer themselves, aircrafts also do this!

I don't see how tractors are any different either. So JD should cut out this rent-seeking bullshit and stop pretending it's in the best interest of anybody other than their shareholders.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#192

Post by jfoutz »

oceanghost wrote: post #183
throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

Most of the folks on HN haven't worked on anything more complicated than a web app.

I'm pretty sure prior versions had no software. Adding software without showing exactly what that software does seems more dangerous than trying to handle everything without explaining how it is handled.

I mean, it used to work like X. Now it works like Y. Which you could inspect via the code. The reality is it works like ?. Because only god and the parent throwaway know.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#193

Post by nottorp »

I don't get why all this chat is about software, licensing and software safety.

The way I read it, a farmer can't change even, say, a brake pad (or whatever tractors use) without authorization from John Deere. I very strongly doubt that they want to mess with the software, they just want to perform minor maintenance themselves.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#194

Post by jon-wood »

melq wrote: post #173
throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

If you could explain in reasonable detail a few common scenarios faced by the average farmer with an issue that would necessitate JD engineering expertise, I would very much appreciate it. Specifically, I'd be interested in hearing how the repair work orders that come in to JD engineering most frequently justify the claim that 'locking this down is a very good idea'. Who, aside from the operator of the machine, is be…

At least some of these vehicles can be run without an operator in the cab, they use GPS and a set of waypoints to do their job independently.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#195

Post by hristov »

throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

Wow the public relations sock-puppetry on HN is getting very clever and sophisticated. I really love the green account - nice touch. It really helps your authenticity to pretend like you are afraid of retribution from John Deere when you are totally kissing their asses.

Let me ask you this -- why in the world do the lines of software you write prevent a qualified mechanic from changing a transmission? You know people used to do that all the time when tractors had zero lines of software in them.

After all you are trying to very cleverly change the subject here. You are doing it very deftly, as you should, because you are not a software developer, you are a PR drone and it is your job to deftly change the subject.

The question here is not about the quality of the John Deere software, so it does not really matter how many engineers worked on it or how hard they worked on it. The problem is that the John Deere software takes away an essential right of property ownership that people take for granted.

No one is accusing the JD software of being faulty, i.e., incapable of serving it's intended purpose. People are accusing the software of having nefarious purposes and serving them all too well.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#196

Post by melq »

lobotryas wrote: post #129
rando832 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a team of hundred of engineers struggle with their codebase internally, Joe Farmer isn't going to have a fucking clue how to repair their software correctly. > But trust me on this, locking this down is a very good idea. Joe Farmer may not know, but Joe farmer has "the internet", and ability to pay an independent software engineer. And people would absolutely find and fix bugs that john deer is missing. Honestly…

What happens if this independent fix results in a death? Do you really think JD will escape liability?

I absolutely think JD would escape liability. Consider the more egregious cases of any number of high-profile companies who have had significant customer data breaches in recent memory. Regardless of how negligent they may have been (lets say they stored user passwords in plain text), have you ever heard of a company being held responsible for even the most egregious/reckless behavior?

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#197

Post by dustinls »

throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

Sounds like you're talking about the code that handles safety features.

What does that have to do with the code specifically written to force farmers to pay John Deer for maintenance and repairs? The stuff they could normally do themselves?

There is an obvious trend to make simple things complicated. Like how you have to remove the whole front end of a car to change a headlight. This sounds exactly like that.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#198

Post by [deleted] »

Pyxl101 wrote: post #34
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #26

I think we'd all be better off if basically everything was open source, by way of eliminating intellectual property protections provided by governments. As an alternate solution, those of us with engineering skills can work to create an open source economy with open source factories, computers, and products. This would never be a problem nor would it be likely to happen if genuinely competitive options existed for fa…

"Everything open source" would take away the incentive for people to create essentially all media professionally: software, music, TVs/movies, podcasts, journalism, and more. Many industries would be destroyed if they didn't have the right to sell their creations (if anyone could copy them and give them away). I personally enjoy the media created by many organizations such as NPR, which made the article we're reading…

[deleted]

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#199

Post by digitalzombie »

dsmithatx wrote: post #86
andrewchambers wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say start one, there are lots of existing companies, perhaps someone with a lower market share could try it.

They don't have the capital and market share to innovate the way the current monopoly (Deere) has. As long as our government is ran by lobbyist awarding the rich, competition will remain a myth. Your comment reads like someone who believes there is a free market. I don't think most Americans realize lobbyist are the opposition and their sole purpose is to ensure a free market does not exist in their respective indust…

I was going to point to free market and libertarian but I didn't want to incite politic.

But yeah, many people that believe in this, thinks it's simple.

One example is my buddy who thinks automation is good and don't account the people who are displaced by it. When press for what he would do for these people. It took 20 minute for him to say: 1. charity 2. community 3. family to help those people. He also counter that because there's less worker due to automation their wages would rise. Articles have shown that their wages would do the opposite actually. But notice there is no government safety net for these people.

It's quite interesting.

If you want this free market, you want your country labor force to run at maximum. So in my opinion, free market people, should at least support some social safety net to transition these people into a new labor sector.

In general this free market thing isn't some law that came about from nature. It's a human invention... so the fear of having more laws or laws being abuse is crazy.

I am incline to believe these people are arm chair economists, just like myself, but with more faith in this mystical concept of free market.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#200

Post by [deleted] »

hristov wrote: post #195
throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

Wow the public relations sock-puppetry on HN is getting very clever and sophisticated. I really love the green account - nice touch. It really helps your authenticity to pretend like you are afraid of retribution from John Deere when you are totally kissing their asses. Let me ask you this -- why in the world do the lines of software you write prevent a qualified mechanic from changing a transmission? You know people…

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