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An off-grid social network

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Re: An off-grid social network

#191

Post by the8472 »

cjbprime wrote: post #155
the8472 wrote: post #3

> However, to get access to the DHT in the first place, you need to connect to a bootstrapping server, such as router.bittorrent.com:6881 or router.utorrent.com:6881 This is a common misunderstanding. You do not need to use those nodes to bootstrap. Most clients simply choose to because it is the most convenient way to do so on the given substrate (the internet). DHTs are in no way limited to specific bootstrap nodes…

I think you're being uncharitable in attributing a misunderstanding. The OP used the phrase "in the first place", and it's mostly correct that if you don't have any cached nodes (hence that phrase), the bootstrap nodes do in fact act as a single point of failure for you. The multicast neighbor discovery is a neat idea. I wonder what percentage of clients/connections it results in successful bootstrapping for.

You can ship a client with a long list of "cached" nodes that were verified to be long-lived. I mean you need to obtain the client at some point, you can gather a fresh list of nodes along with it. From that point onward you keep your own cache fresh.

You could also run your own bootstrap node on an always-up server if downtimes making the lists stale is a concern.

You can also inject contacts when starting the client, you would have to obtain them out-of-band from somewhere of course, but it still does not require anything centralized.

If you're desperate you could also just sweep allocated IPv4 blocks and DHT-ping port 6881, you'll probably find one relatively fast. Of course that doesn't work with v6.

So there is no centralization and no single point of failure.

> The multicast neighbor discovery is a neat idea. I wonder what percentage of clients/connections it results in successful bootstrapping for.

It could work on a college campus, some conference network or occasionally some open wifi. Additionally there are some corporate bittorrent deployments where peer discovery via multicast can make sense.

If I understand TFA correctly scuttlebutt assumes(?) roaming through wifis and LANs. Those circumstances are ideal for multicast bootstrapping, so in principle the DHT can perform just as well as scuttlebutt, probably even better because once it has bootstrapped it can use the global DHT to keep contact with the network even if there is no lan-local peer to be discovered.

Re: An off-grid social network

#192

Post by jumpkickhit »

itchyjunk wrote: post #68

I am not much of a social networking type of person, but I have wondered how nice it would be to network with a community like HN. For example, I see a nice comment chain going on in some news article, but as the article dies so does all the conversation within it. Maybe it's just me but if I see an article is x+ hours old (15+ for example), I don't bother commenting. What type of social networking would HN use for n…

Yeah, I'd be happy to see an active IRC channel for HN. Though, I doubt many would use it since IRC is way past being en vogue.

Re: An off-grid social network

#193

Post by ptr_void »

matt_wulfeck wrote: post #179

The post starts by introducing two people (one in a boat in the ocean and another in the mountains in Hawaii) and states that they are communicating to each other. I thought this post was about some new long-range wireless protocol that sync'd via satellites or some such. I was disappointed to see this: > Every time two Scuttlebutt friends connect to the same WiFi, their computers will synchronize the latest messages…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_mesh_network https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYLU755T6_I

Re: An off-grid social network

#194

Post by cjbprime »

the8472 wrote: post #191
cjbprime wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're being uncharitable in attributing a misunderstanding. The OP used the phrase "in the first place", and it's mostly correct that if you don't have any cached nodes (hence that phrase), the bootstrap nodes do in fact act as a single point of failure for you. The multicast neighbor discovery is a neat idea. I wonder what percentage of clients/connections it results in successful bootstrapping for.

You can ship a client with a long list of "cached" nodes that were verified to be long-lived. I mean you need to obtain the client at some point, you can gather a fresh list of nodes along with it. From that point onward you keep your own cache fresh. You could also run your own bootstrap node on an always-up server if downtimes making the lists stale is a concern. You can also inject contacts when starting the clien…

These are excellent ideas. Are any of them implemented? If I download e.g. uTorrent today and firewall off the hardcoded public bootstrap nodes, will it bootstrap?

Re: An off-grid social network

#195

Post by amelius »

itchyjunk wrote: post #68

I am not much of a social networking type of person, but I have wondered how nice it would be to network with a community like HN. For example, I see a nice comment chain going on in some news article, but as the article dies so does all the conversation within it. Maybe it's just me but if I see an article is x+ hours old (15+ for example), I don't bother commenting. What type of social networking would HN use for n…

I think HN disables commenting after X hours for every post.

Perhaps HN could introduce email notifications (e.g., if somebody replies to one of your comments/posts, you get a notification by email).

Re: An off-grid social network

#196

Post by unlmtd »

The identity problem is being resolved. uport.me is the first implementation. The idea is so simple one wonders why we hadn't thought of it before. Of course it necessitates a working consensus algorithm, which is in its infancy. Some devs at ethereum are figuring out clever ways to get rid of proof if work. They're calling it 'casper'. Very clever stuff. Exciting times!

Re: An off-grid social network

#197

Post by Nomentatus »

cestith wrote: post #92
Jaruzel wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see the topology as very USENet like. Not that this is a bad thing. There's still life in USENet, and a fair few people still sit and discuss things in various groups (if you know where to look)[1]. The backbone concept of USENet is still great from a decentralised point of view - someone just needs to add some crypto layers to it (as a standard), and I reckon it could rise again like a phoenix. --- [1] I'm deliber…

If you make a decentralized, encrypted, potentially anonymous network some users will use it for bootlegs and probably worse. That doesn't preclude or outweigh all the legitimate uses.

Interesting question: "How avoidable is this outcome with or without Scuttlebutt?" In Cuba, USB sticks perform this function, distributing all kinds of media - but mostly movies - throughout society in the face of heavy censorship of every other connection. Admittedly, though, that still requires a kind of common consent. The "and probably worse" stuff couldn't be passed around this way; certainly not so easily as the latest Hollywood movies.

Re: An off-grid social network

#199

Post by rocky1138 »

hmhrex wrote: post #183
rocky1138 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not being able to switch nodes pushes you to try and host your own instead. That's what I've done. IMO we should instead be looking at packaging a self-hosted version into a native Windows and Mac app. Run it in the background and everything's done.

This is what I want. I've been wanting to build something like this for a long time. Something where I own my data. I can back it up and if my laptop gets stolen, I just import my data on a new machine and we're good to go. The challenges that I see: - Making it easy for any user to get up and running. - De-authenticating old devices. - Making it available from any mobile device.

I bought a VPS from CloudAtCost for a one-time fee of $35. Set it up with nginx and GNU Social and pretty much haven't looked back since. My instance is https://kwat.chat.

Ideally, the end solution would be dead simple. Download the Windows app, run it, put your credit card in if you need a URL registered, and it does everything, including daily backups to a folder on your disk.

Re: An off-grid social network

#200

Post by sp332 »

chc4 wrote: post #15

This sounds like what I wanted from GNU Social when I first joined over a year ago. GNU Social/Mastodon is a fun idea, but it falls apart when you realise that you still don't own your content and it's functionally impossible to switch nodes like it advertised, along with federation being a giant mess. I tried to switch what server my account was on halfway through my GNU Social life, and you just can't; all your fol…

It seems like you could get a some of the efficiency gains of having lots of people on one node, but avoid the difficulty of moving, by setting up a new node for each person even if they are hosted on the same box. That way you can pick up the whole node with your account and move it, instead of trying to move your account from one node to another.
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