How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive • Hacker News Board

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#191

Post by dorian-graph » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 8:39 PM UTC

kelukelugames wrote: post #182

BurningFrog wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wonder about the Mormon missionaries. Did you actually convert anyone? Or is that not even the point?

Yes, and a lot of them take wives from whichever foreign land they were in too. Part of the plan to grow the religion.

Do you have a source for both of those claims?

As a Mormon, I can say that from my experience, "a lot of them take wives from whichever foreign land they were in too", isn't true. In fact, if someone does it's uncommon enough that it's noteworthy.. but it's not terribly surprising if it does happen. Also, there's women who serve missions too, and have for a while.

With "Part of the plan to grow the religion.", I've never seen that in the church's plan.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#192

Post by redsummer » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 8:46 PM UTC

dorian-graph wrote: post #186

austenallred wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why that's a more logical conclusion than "I believe God wants me to do x therefore I do x"

You're missing a fundamental part so I'll add it in, but even so, it's still incredibly simplified so as to push a certain derogatory view. "I believe God wants me to do x because y therefore I do x because y and/or z"

The y in that is the supernatural stuff - the story. I wouldn't go to see a movie if it didn't have a good story. I wouldn't go if it was just a list of facts. But that's what the dull modern atheists types want me to do in life.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#193

Post by DanBC » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 8:52 PM UTC

trcollinson wrote: post #190

ScottBurson wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, maybe things are in the process of changing, but gay Mormons will not feel completely comfortable until the doctrine forbidding homosexual behavior is consigned to the dustbin of history. You can't say that the behavior is forbidden without having some residue of the belief that homosexuality is inherently sinful, and that residue has impact on people no matter how much you paper over it by trying to be "warm a…

Mormons also believe that any sexual relations outside of a legal, heterosexual marriage are a sin. I believe in this doctrine. I had many friends who found this doctrine hard to live by between that wanted to act on opposite-sex attraction with glee! I also found this doctrine REALLY hard. I wanted, really wanted, to act with some glee on some people I was attracted to and who were attracted to me. But I didn't. I d…

> Where do we draw the line?

Beliefs that cause an increase in death by suicide probably need to be looked at to see if they're really that important.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#194

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 8:55 PM UTC

ScottBurson wrote: post #177

Dobbs wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand Utah has one of the higher suicide rates in the country[1], and leads the country in use of antidepressants[2]. Despite being tongue-in-cheek I think the lesson is not so cut and dry. In my personal, anecdotal experience, a lot of the behavior in Utah is forced to keep up the image of a particular life style. 1: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6345a10.htm 2: http://articles.latimes.com/2…

A joke I heard once is that entering Provo you see a sign: "Have a Nice Day. It's the Law."

[deleted]

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#195

Post by angry-hacker » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 9:01 PM UTC

waderyan wrote: post #84

BurningFrog wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wonder about the Mormon missionaries. Did you actually convert anyone? Or is that not even the point?

I was a Mormon missionary. Each missionary memorizes this to drill in their purpose: "My purpose is to invite others to come unto Christ by helping them receive the restored gospel through faith in Jesus Christ and His Atonement, repentance, baptism, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end." https://www.lds.org/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missi... Most of our activities were finding peopl…

Just wanted to thank you guys, met a lot of Mormons all over the world. Great people, can always talk snd discuss things, always recognize you by the n cell clothes you wear and the fact you always speak the local language :)

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#196

Post by thomastjeffery » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 9:07 PM UTC

suresk wrote: post #113

arconis987 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up Mormon in Utah and I love the Mormons in my life. Every leader in local congregations is an unpaid volunteer. Everyone in the congregation has a responsibility to carry out in the community (sunday school teacher, youth mentor, clerk to track finances, etc). As a Mormon kid, I was taught to work hard my whole life for the good of others. I served a Mormon mission in Europe, which was an extremely difficult…

Do you have kids? It is much harder for non/ex-mormon kids in certain places in Utah. Once the initial effort to convert you fails, you frequently get treated very poorly. Lots of mormon parents won't let their kids play with non-mormon kids, and an even larger percent won't let their kids date non-mormons. We live in a fairly mormon-heavy part of Utah, and while I really like our neighbors and don't feel like the re…

> Lots of mormon parents won't let their kids play with non-mormon kids, and an even larger percent won't let their kids date non-mormons.

As a Mormon, I'd like to let you know something: Those people are assholes. That kind of behavior is rude, and uninviting (literally); two qualities that are opposite what LDS people (Mormons) are taught to be.

Unfortunately, this is a common problem in the Utah bubble. Those parents are well meaning - they just want their kids to fit into a mould they believe to be a better life - yet go about it in entirely the wrong way.

I was lucky enough to grow up in an enigma inside the Utah bubble (an Army base), where that behavior was just not even viable, and therefore scarcely exists (if at all). On behalf of Mormons all around the world, I would like to apologise for that kind of behavior.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#197

Post by angry-hacker » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 9:07 PM UTC

w1ntermute wrote: post #109

itchyjunk wrote: post #15

When I was first about to move to Utah, few years ago, lot of people asked me "why?" and told me a lot about a lot of things. Of course, I didn't even know who the Mormons were (I am not from USA originally). Most of what I heard was wrong. I've met Mormons who have asked me where I am from and not only know where that country is but spoke to me in my NATIVE tougue. I was very impressed. The key word in the article i…

> I've met Mormons who have asked me where I am from and not only know where that country is but spoke to me in my NATIVE tougue. I was very impressed. That's because they send missionaries all over the world to convert people to Mormonism. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but they aren't really interested in other countries, languages, or cultures beyond using that knowledge to impose their own culture and…

All the Mormons I've met are the nicest people you could ask. I've met a lot, in different places. It's a hobby of mine talking with them. I'm an atheist b t genuinely believe if all the people would act like this, world would be pretty damn close to being a heaven.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#198

Post by 467568985476 » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 9:09 PM UTC

Banthum wrote: post #142

diebir wrote: post #120

Go ahead and visit Salt Lake (I am comparing to Colorado). I think they either don't have the money or out of principle do not maintain their roads. That's the economy. The geography is not favorable either. Salt Lake sits in a bowl surrounded by dark hills with little vegetation. The hills are all dug by mines and open pits. They have the whole range ("on the other side") that is essentially one big mine. The winter…

Comments on the climate and economy are reasonable here - But your moral judgmentalism reminds me of a Bible-thumping racist talking about how horrible SF is because of all the godlessness and miscegenation. Yes, people in Utah have different political values. Judge the results of those values, don't just say it's a horrible place because so many people have evil in their minds.

Isn't that exactly what he's saying? That the Republicans they overwhelmingly elect generally vote for policies that damage the environment?

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#199

Post by cookiecaper » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 9:13 PM UTC

ScottBurson wrote: post #181

cookiecaper wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as churches go, the Mormon church does not have "notorious hostility" toward LGBT persons, and does everything it can to give hope to youth who feel they may be part of that group. It is true that Mormons maintain a doctrine that forbids homosexual behavior. Other than giving that up, they've done everything they can to be welcoming and accepting of gay people, regularly encouraging members to be civil, kind,…

Well, maybe things are in the process of changing, but gay Mormons will not feel completely comfortable until the doctrine forbidding homosexual behavior is consigned to the dustbin of history. You can't say that the behavior is forbidden without having some residue of the belief that homosexuality is inherently sinful, and that residue has impact on people no matter how much you paper over it by trying to be "warm a…

Yeah, I mean, there is no doubt that there is a fundamental disagreement about homosexuality between Mormon doctrine (and religion in general) and the popular contemporary understanding.

The Church condemns a set of behaviors, not a state of being, mind, or attraction, so regardless of one's opinion on the origin or fixed condition of sexual attraction, there is no need to feel guilt for inclinations, inherent or no.

There is already ample theological justification for proclivities toward any sinful behavior, which we all have: Earth is a "fallen world", a testing ground where temptation must be presented to all and adequately resisted. This covers forbidden sexual activity, which is not limited to homosexuality, just as well as it covers any other inclination toward sinful or negative behaviors.

Unlike other issues that brought Mormonism into conflict with the prevailing social dogma, this is not flexible and should not be expected to change.

Despite all this, far from hunkering down and drawing exclusionary barriers, the Church is trying, as best as it can, to communicate that everyone is welcome in the "hospital for sinners" that the Church comprises.

Everyone fails to meet the standards that the Church defines along some axes, since Christ literally commands men to be perfect [0]. The goal is to get people accelerating and proceeding toward the ideal, and to provide support in their attempt to do so. Everyone is welcomed to that effort, with as much participation as they are willing to give.

[0] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A48&...

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#200

Post by dagw » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 9:14 PM UTC

austenallred wrote: post #169

redsummer wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps not to compensate, but to validate. You would never feel compelled to act in a certain way because the sky is blue, or because water is wet. But if you have a political or religious belief, however absurd, you feel a compulsion to act.

I don't see why that's a more logical conclusion than "I believe God wants me to do x therefore I do x"

Lot's of religions have the "I believe God wants me to do x" component without their followers then actually doing X. Non of the Catholics I know, for example, are particularly catholic or overly christian in their day to day behaviour, while all the Mormons I know try very hard to be, well, Mormon.