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VPNs are not the solution to a policy problem

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Re: VPNs are not the solution to a policy problem

#191

Post by kupiakos »

arca_vorago wrote: post #179
igk wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The second school of thought is individual responsibility. Users should take steps to protect their own privacy on a case-by-case basis, in the same way they look after their own home security or personal safety. I think this is a bullshit argument. Nobody looks after their home security or personal security the way we expect users to be careful of their privacy, nor do we accept the amount of intrusions into our h…

> We have police, laws, community rules, all of these things to protect our houses and personal security. If you leave the door unlocked, robbing it is still a crime. Likewise, if you walk around on an unsafe neighbourhood and get robbed, it would be ludicrous to hear "well, the city warned you that part is unsafe, so the police isn't going to investigate" The irony of this statement is that this actually happens qui…

This is actually the topic of an old xkcd: https://xkcd.com/504/

Re: VPNs are not the solution to a policy problem

#192

Post by Bartweiss »

libeclipse wrote: post #138

I understand the viewpoint of the article, but it assumes that the person waving the wand particularly cares about everyone else. Personally, with the Investigatory Powers Bill in the UK, I will "wave the wand of a technology solution" to conserve and protect my own privacy. Sure, if the policy was changed upstream then a lot more people would benefit than the technically inclined folks, but if there's a bug upstream…

It also assumes the person waving the wand has any faith that they can help anyone else.

The last paragraph, about holding the House accountable in 2018? That deserved the preface about "not understanding US politics". The privacy voting bloc is small, and the vast majority of it lives in places that already elect pro-privacy reps - Boston and SF are incredibly limited in what they can achieve.

I'd like to see internet privacy enshrined in US law. I'll fight to make that happen. But it's an "empty the ocean with a teacup" situation, and in the meantime it makes total sense for people to help themselves and those around them.

Re: VPNs are not the solution to a policy problem

#193

Post by infogulch »

jupp0r wrote: post #166
nikcub wrote: post #102

There are a few schools of thought on where responsibility should lie in protecting user privacy. The first that it is a role of government and policy - in the same way the government sets standards for automobile and road safety they can set and enforce policies for user privacy. The second school of thought is individual responsibility. Users should take steps to protect their own privacy on a case-by-case basis, i…

> Users should take steps to protect their own privacy on a case-by-case basis, in the same way they look after their own home security or personal safety. While I agree with your point, home and personal safety are completely broken analogies for this problem. They are regulated heavily by policy (criminal law) and violations enforced by the government (law enforcement).

This is an important difference. Home locks are trivial to pick for even novices, yet we continue using the same locks. Why? Why isn't there an arms race between lock manufacturers/homeowners and burglars? Because there is external enforcement: if your house is locked, even weakly, that is signaling your intent to prevent access and opens a burglar to legal ramifications if they pick it and enter, regardless of how easy it is.

"Everyone is responsible for their own security" is a wild-west fantasy land that we don't live in. And just because you take actions to increase your personal security farther than normal (e.g. guns, dogs, better locks, etc) doesn't mean you get to put fingers in your ears yelling "lalalala" and pretend externally provided security doesn't exist.

Re: VPNs are not the solution to a policy problem

#194

Post by Bartweiss »

sjwright wrote: post #44

Perhaps one solution might be to poison the data and have your router/device make spurious random DNS lookups and HTTPS connections. Ensure the list of random websites includes the top few hundred companies likely to be in the market for usage data. If enough people did this it would make the data useless.

I think data poisoning is going to become increasingly influential, simply because data restriction is so damn hard. Blocking every possible fingerprinting scheme is all but impossible, and any slip-up permanently releases information.

But data poisoning is relatively easy and offers an "additive" solution. Every use decreases the value of all the information you spill, which is way more appealing than demanding flawless defense at every turn.

Re: VPNs are not the solution to a policy problem

#195

Post by dboreham »

zeveb wrote: post #187
Pharylon wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Parent's analogy only works in a world where breaking and entering was legal, and it was everyone's personal responsibility to defend their home.

We live in a world where breaking and entering is possible, and the police may only come after the fact, and might not come at all — it is everyone's personal responsibility to defend his home. Likewise, we live in a world where violating one's privacy is possible, which means it is probable, and thus it is everyone's personal responsibility to defend his privacy.

This is ridiculous nonsense (although living in the West of the US myself, I know a few people who have this mentality). We just don't live in a world where the fact that nobody is robbing you blind is entirely due to fear that you'll shoot them. That's pure fantasy. They're not robbing you blind due to things like : they have jobs and are gainfully employed doing something more profitable than robbing people; they'd (eventually) be caught and sent to jail; and so on..

Re: VPNs are not the solution to a policy problem

#196

Post by NoGravitas »

nikcub wrote: post #102

There are a few schools of thought on where responsibility should lie in protecting user privacy. The first that it is a role of government and policy - in the same way the government sets standards for automobile and road safety they can set and enforce policies for user privacy. The second school of thought is individual responsibility. Users should take steps to protect their own privacy on a case-by-case basis, i…

While I disagree with you in many particulars, I'm grateful for the depth of this comment.

Regarding VPNs, one issue that I'm sure you're aware of but didn't discuss, is that VPNs aren't really a technical privacy solution. Rather, they're a technical solution for moving your privacy concerns from one policy jurisdiction to another that you see as more favorable. That can be private policy (your VPN provider has a better privacy policy than your ISP), or public policy (the Netherlands have better privacy policy than the US). But the policy issues still matter. If every government had a dystopian privacy policy, and enforced it on all of their ISPs and VPN providers, then a VPN would be useless.

Re: VPNs are not the solution to a policy problem

#197

Post by matt4077 »

zeveb wrote: post #187
Pharylon wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Parent's analogy only works in a world where breaking and entering was legal, and it was everyone's personal responsibility to defend their home.

We live in a world where breaking and entering is possible, and the police may only come after the fact, and might not come at all — it is everyone's personal responsibility to defend his home. Likewise, we live in a world where violating one's privacy is possible, which means it is probable, and thus it is everyone's personal responsibility to defend his privacy.

What do you think would have more of an impact on the security of your home: repealing the laws against breaking & entering, or removing the lock from your door?

It's naive to think of oneself as strong enough to self-protecting. I know there's a certain appeal in the lone wolf myth that speaks to the (mostly male) psyche. But never in the history of mankind has it been the winning strategy to be strong and independent.

Since we were apes in trees, our security has relied entirely on a strong net of social bonds. Cooperation is the strongest force multiplier, and no matter how many guns you have, you wouldn't have chance against even against a small group. Laws are nothing but a formal manifestation of group behaviour.

Then, there's the attacker-defender asymmetry: defending yourself means defending yourself 100% of the time. There is no middle-class home in the US that I couldn't get into if I really wanted, nor are there any non-famous people that I couldn't kill with a bit of dedication.

It wouldn't be possible to protect against such threads without the rule of law. And even if it were, it would amount to a giant collective waste of resources. Personally, I also don't want to think of any stranger as a thread, but that's what it would require.

Re: VPNs are not the solution to a policy problem

#198

Post by matt4077 »

nikcub wrote: post #102

There are a few schools of thought on where responsibility should lie in protecting user privacy. The first that it is a role of government and policy - in the same way the government sets standards for automobile and road safety they can set and enforce policies for user privacy. The second school of thought is individual responsibility. Users should take steps to protect their own privacy on a case-by-case basis, i…

I love how we've been so effective in protecting the users' privacy and freedom in places with adversarial administrations such as China.

How else could we be so confident in our technical abilities, allowing us to just dismiss attempts to influence policy as useless.

Re: VPNs are not the solution to a policy problem

#199

Post by matt4077 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #147
jfoutz wrote: post #61

Lots of people seem to think the right answer is selling improved security. I disagree. It would be much more exiting to get the data coming from politicians homes, and the homes of their staff. It would be a fantastic way to generate news. Why is senator X's household researching cancer treatment? Will they step down this year? I can't help but think military bases would google their next deployment, that's another…

Well, pastebinning communication of a politician (or better - their kid) seems like such an effective idea, I wonder why this doesn't seem to happen? Is there a strong roadblock somewhere there? It's not like most politicians and their staff know much about Internet security.

Let's leave their kids out of this.

Re: VPNs are not the solution to a policy problem

#200

Post by pnutjam »

BatFastard wrote: post #101

Does anyone sell a router for the home that has a VPN built in? So that I dont have to have every computer in my home hook into the VPN when I start it up. Just one account for my whole house? I imagine you could setup a linux box to do that for you, but I am lazy...

Here's one: https://www.perfect-privacy.com/vpn-router/ although I picked up one of these e2500's at the goodwill by my house for $1.50. I have one and wanted a spare.

Here's another: https://www.flashrouters.com/?gclid=COzwtN-B_NICFZcbgQodMdAP...

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