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Hiring without whiteboards

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Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#191

Post by emidln »

ninjakeyboard wrote: post #110

What's with all the whiteboard backlash? I ask simple questions and expect people to be able to write code unaided to express their idea. Not "implement a linked list" or "write quicksort" but basic "You have two arrays - find if a number exists in both arrays" sort of thing, primarily to reason about runtime complexity, and to make sure they can actually write code. If you tell a candidate to prepare, they should be…

I've had interviews where someone expected me to write "compiles and runs code" in languages such as Python, Java, and C. I've also had interviews where "solve the program on the whiteboard with any language you feel comfortable with" means "exactly Java 5/6/7" because that's what the interviewer happens to know best.

I'm decent with a whiteboard. I routinely use one for brainstorming and discussing problems at work. I don't mind writing code on a whiteboard, even specific language code and including stupid shit like semicolons. I also understand that despite the fact that I can do it (and even enjoy it), it's a miserable experience for some people and expecting everyone to remember minor details that their editor/IDE takes care of for them isn't looking for the right thing.

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#192

Post by randallsquared »

vonmoltke wrote: post #157
runako wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they start talking about whether or not the arrays are sorted, how big they are, whether you could refactor the array building code to return the data as a object index instead ... then it's clear that the person knows how to code simple things, and all without needing to pick up a marker pen Having worked with people like this, I have to call BS. There are a lot of people with the distinct skill of being able t…

> Having worked with people like this, I have to call BS. There are a lot of people with the distinct skill of being able to effectively imitate the speech patterns of actual programmers. Asking questions, engaging in productive discussion, etc. But when faced with an empty editor, they simply cannot produce working code. Having never worked with anyone like that, I will have to call BS on this because it is simply t…

> Plus, if they're so good at aping speech patterns, who says they aren't equally good at aping code patterns?

One is a social skill; the other requires understanding. Even in a technical conversation, a very large percentage of the interaction is social if the conversation is taking place face-to-face. I have also worked with people who could talk the talk, but not produce the code. Without social skills, those people seem to fail from job to job while not really understanding that they are failing: things just inexplicably go wrong all the time. With social skills (which is much more common), those people bafflegab their way into being system architects, middle or upper managers, and executives, where a lack of detailed low-level knowledge is more of an asset that keeps them from getting bogged down in details.

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#193

Post by icebraining »

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #165
ninjakeyboard wrote: post #110

What's with all the whiteboard backlash? I ask simple questions and expect people to be able to write code unaided to express their idea. Not "implement a linked list" or "write quicksort" but basic "You have two arrays - find if a number exists in both arrays" sort of thing, primarily to reason about runtime complexity, and to make sure they can actually write code. If you tell a candidate to prepare, they should be…

>If they can't write some simple code unaided, then I don't want to work with them. I was a copy-paste programmer once too. Lovely. Someone put up with you, but now you won't do the same and offer to teach.

Or maybe ninjakeyboard skilled up before applying for a job.

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#194

Post by snissn »

at-fates-hands wrote: post #182
ninjakeyboard wrote: post #110

What's with all the whiteboard backlash? I ask simple questions and expect people to be able to write code unaided to express their idea. Not "implement a linked list" or "write quicksort" but basic "You have two arrays - find if a number exists in both arrays" sort of thing, primarily to reason about runtime complexity, and to make sure they can actually write code. If you tell a candidate to prepare, they should be…

>> What's with all the whiteboard backlash? Here's the deal. As a developer, I have about 30 repos out on GitHub with plenty of examples I've done in the last three years. If you want to interview me, then go look at my code first. I have a pretty specific style so all the code is consistent. Go look at my code, dissect it, ask me questions about it, ask me why did this instead of that, why I prefer some library over…

A business wants to hire you to solve business problems. Coding is the manifestation of the solutions. To me the white board session is to understand if you can take new problems and understand them enough to sketch out a solution. As a hiring manager, I'm glad you've written code before, I want to understand on a day to day basis if you can transform business problems into solutions.

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#195

Post by drdaeman »

crush_xc wrote: post #163
drdaeman wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't know why this comment is downvoted, because he has a point. Writing actual code on whiteboard is different, unless it's pseudocode without any syntax rules and standard libraries. I'm not a newbie (like, 15 years coding). But I haven't even bothered to properly remember standard libraries peculiarities - since they're different across the languages anyway, and with modern software stacks (that are quite diverse…

Why does everyone assume that you're asked to write perfect code on a whiteboard? I've been through 15+ interviews and have never been asked to worry about method names being right or signatures of methods being perfect and such. Most of the time people are amicably against me worrying about it. This isn't an issue.

I think, it's not an assumption, but a fear that this is the case.

Adds some extra anxiety as interviewee still worries about their code being correct or not. No one wants to risk being frowned upon just because they've messed up some syntax fine point. And since people are different, sometimes it really happens.

This can be avoided if interviewee's specifically told they just have to write algorithms in pseudocode, but it's not how it always goes in practice.

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#196

Post by passivepinetree »

bogomipz wrote: post #12

I would like to see a compilation of companies that aren't requiring a "coding project" as part of their interview process. I much prefer to write on a whiteboard as part of an onsite interview than to do a "coding project" for every single company that "might" be interested in me. My experience lately has been an immediate request to complete a coding project right after speaking to a recruiter but before speaking t…

Do you have any examples of companies that have asked this of you? I'd actually really like to apply; that seems like a fantastic way to gain some experience outside of my daily job.

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#197

Post by logfromblammo »

badminton1 wrote: post #155
lostcolony wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most companies avoid that by not giving candidates a reason why they were not hired.

Well, if you did relatively fine they might still contact you in the future for other positions.

I can't tell if you're being facetious or if you're really that naive.

No company that I have worked for has ever said, "You know what? Let's look at the resumes of previous applicants, call them up, and see if they are still looking for new jobs." Every vacant position is always filled by direct, active applicants. Even backchannel applicants have to send a fresh copy of their resume to someone, so that it can be added to the applicant tracking system.

Tech resumes have a short shelf life. If the person is any good, and actively seeking to change employers, they will already have a new job by the time you have an opening for them. And if they are constantly doing a low-key, back-burner search, just to stay tuned-in, they will probably apply again to whatever you advertise, if they are still interested in your company.

The only companies that will keep your resume forever and call you back later are recruiters.

It may be that I have never been considered good enough to get hired, but not quite as good as the people they chose to hire on the first round, but for most companies, I either get an offer or I never hear from them again. Those still willing to communicate after a no-offer have never contacted me again regarding another open position. I admit there may be a theoretical nonzero probability of this occurring, but it has a lot of zeros between the decimal point and any other digit.

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#198

Post by silverbax88 »

ninjakeyboard wrote: post #110

What's with all the whiteboard backlash? I ask simple questions and expect people to be able to write code unaided to express their idea. Not "implement a linked list" or "write quicksort" but basic "You have two arrays - find if a number exists in both arrays" sort of thing, primarily to reason about runtime complexity, and to make sure they can actually write code. If you tell a candidate to prepare, they should be…

You'd better be looking for psuedocode, because if you're looking for syntax, no strong programmer with experience is going to take you seriously.

Honestly, whiteboard interviews are for lightweight startups with very little programming knowledge. You should be looking at logic, not syntax. You should be looking at how the person thinks, not if they can memorize a specific language to do a simple task.

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#199

Post by rand_r »

onion2k wrote: post #168
lostcolony wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is mentioning loops a bad sign? The question is simple, and asks for only checking one value; that's a simple answer that, for one value, takes linear time, which is the best you can do (without assuming the array is sorted, but expecting someone to ask you if the array is sorted turns it into a trick question, rather than a real world one). I mean, yes, I'd prefer them to go to a library call for that, but I wou…

...that's more interview technique, not actual coding skill. The skill and art of "coding" is in finding solutions to problems, not "writing code". When I interview people I'm looking for someone who can explore problems, ask questions, and find good solutions. If they don't feel like they have enough information I expect them to question things. If they're working on assumptions (like 'what does the array actually l…

If you keep questioning assumptions, you'll fine that justified knowledge is theoretically impossible. Don't be ridiculous.

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#200

Post by lostboys67 »

lostcolony wrote: post #156
onion2k wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the primary problem with this sort of interview process is that most companies don't hire enough people to discover whether or not it actually works, plus an interview is so much of a multivariate problem that you'll never really know which part of the process is broken if a bad hire gets though. And that's compounded by the fact any false negatives (great candidates who would have fitted in but got rejected)…

Why is mentioning loops a bad sign? The question is simple, and asks for only checking one value; that's a simple answer that, for one value, takes linear time, which is the best you can do (without assuming the array is sorted, but expecting someone to ask you if the array is sorted turns it into a trick question, rather than a real world one). I mean, yes, I'd prefer them to go to a library call for that, but I wou…

data structures huh ?? thats a ml Q ie what sort of machine learning algo would you use to do that.
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