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Nevertheless, She Coded

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Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#191
post #83

Warren violated the rules- it has _nothing_ to do with her gender. Whether her points are validate or not, the rules were followed as they would have been with any man. If she wants to get her opinion out, she can hold a press conference outside the Senate or simply call Maddow, like she did- a friendly audience that would allow her to speak as long as they had time for.

Seconded, and it's why I flagged the article. The Senate has rules, and those rules are fairly enforced regardless of gender. Tying a movement to the perceived unfairness of a fair enforcement seems to me to be unwise.

>The Senate has rules, and those rules are fairly enforced regardless of gender.

Later that same night, a male senator from Oregon read the complete letter that Warren was trying to read from the floor of the senate.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#192
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't know. It seems reasonable. All the academic studies I have seen either adjust for it explicitly or put forward a strong case on why it isn't being included.

It's certainly reasonable for a studies across fields with hourly pay or, e.g., including both part-time and full-time (such as the BLS survey cited by the Forbes article), but I'm not sure we can make that assumption for software development - programmer productivity in a given time period is, on its own, somewhat mythically considered to vary by orders of magnitude.

Anecdotal evidence matches this up pretty closely. Better programmers tend to work more, it's just a fact of life.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#193

I'm frankly quite surprised by the initial wave of comments disparaging this message. The facts are that women are poorly represented in the tech community[1], and do make less than men[2]. Any attempt to let women feel more accepted and bring about much needed change should be championed, not picked apart and belittled because you feel like you are personally being attacked when people are just asking for help. 1. h…

Perhaps there are disparaging comments because people love to quote misleading statistics... kind of just like you did. From the glassdoor wage gap study you mentioned in [2]: > After taking into account differences in education and experience, men working at tech companies overall make 5.9 percent more than women do From a brief scan of the study they didn't control for hours worked and they are already down to 5.9%…

Funny enough, I agree with both you and the person you're arguing against. I agree that the wage gap (as defined by the difference in how much men and women earn when working in the same position with the same skills) is probably pretty close to 6%. [0] I also agree that there is a big problem currently.

In my opinion, the problem is twofold. First of all, this gap - whatever you think it is, 6% or 9% or 21% - it is a problem. Most Americans live pretty close to financial ruin, like it or not. 76% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck [1] and 63% of Americans are one missed paycheck away from the streets [2]. A 6% pay gap is about two paychecks. Even though it may not seem like much to a HN reader with significant savings or a safety net, this small gap spread across the whole population actually causes problems.

The second part of the problem is societal: women are discouraged from pursuing higher-paying jobs by society. This isn't the fault of the women themselves, or the people doing the hiring, but sexism and biases hidden everywhere. In my opinion, this is the best support for affirmative action: more women doing a certain job translates to more women interested in that career.

These two things combined are a double whammy that currently mean that less women work and women who do work are not always financially secure - and that's the big problem here. If you're a woman from an upper class background and have been encouraged by those around you, you may never experience any of these problems, and that's great. But if you're an average American woman, these things have a very real impact on your life.

This also explains the giant gulfs of opinion I see here on HN. Most people here are relatively wealthy - remember, if you earn more than 36k a year, you earn more than most working Americans. $70k/yr means you earn more than 75% of American workers. I'd bet the vast majority of US programmers on here earn above 70k/yr. It's easy to get caught in a bubble and say 'well the women around me seem to have no problems!' and forget about the majority of the country. At the same time, if you live in a low-income area, those two "missed" paychecks might be absolutely killer.

[0] I have a personal, unfounded feeling that it's closer to 10% - maybe 8-9% if I had to guess.

[1] http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/24/pf/emergency-savings/

[2] http://www.marketwatch.com/story/most-americans-are-one-payc...

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#194

I'm frankly quite surprised by the initial wave of comments disparaging this message. The facts are that women are poorly represented in the tech community[1], and do make less than men[2]. Any attempt to let women feel more accepted and bring about much needed change should be championed, not picked apart and belittled because you feel like you are personally being attacked when people are just asking for help. 1. h…

If they make less than men, why don't companies hire women alone? Don't they want to save money on salaries?

This is an argument that I have yet to see being addressed to my satisfaction.

If recent raises / salaries in the tech industry outside of Silicon Valley are any guide, companies love to save money on salaries. So I honestly have no idea why all the men I work with haven't been replaced by women being paid 95% or whatever the claimed pay gap is. And remember, this is in the US, where you can legally be let go because your boss doesn't like the color of your shoes.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they make less than men, why don't companies hire women alone? Don't they want to save money on salaries?

Because women are subconsciously undervalued as workers. This discussion is complex and it's not entirely obvious how much of the pay gap is caused by discrimination, but this is one stupid argument.

There are software companies composed of all men (or 95% men if we want to be a bit more relaxed). Successful ones - as in making profit.

Where are all-women (or 95% women) companies? If you can get away with paying them less, where are all the capitalists exploiting the market inefficiency and getting rich in the process?

Hell, nowadays companies like Starbucks[0] routinely put social causes first, profits second. So where are these companies?

[0] https://www.starbucks.com/blog/an-open-letter-from-howard-sc...

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#196
I wish comments were scored in a way that was weighted by the degree of bravery it took to write them.

What a shame that most of the top comments here are boring, stand-up-for-the-vulnerable types agreed with by the majority— "women face difficulties in tech, and we should help them whenever we can"—while the downvoted posts are the ones trying (not necessarily successfully) to arrive at politically incorrect truths.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#197
post #173

If ever I had a notion that an expression of solidarity for women in tech was unnecessary or quixotic, the response to this article on this very forum would be sufficient to dispel it.

From what I've seen, there are less African-American and non-white hispanic men in tech than there are white and Asian women, yet I never see this discussed. Is this not an important issue as well? Will skewed racial ratios only be handled after gender parity has been achieved? Or do they not matter at all?

The same people who call attention to gender diversity also speak out for racial diversity. This particular piece focuses on gender because of today's being International Women's Day.

http://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/why-cant-silicon-...

http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/20/9179853/tech-diversity-sco...

https://medium.com/tech-diversity-files/thought-on-diversity...

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they make less than men, why don't companies hire women alone? Don't they want to save money on salaries?

This is an argument that I have yet to see being addressed to my satisfaction. If recent raises / salaries in the tech industry outside of Silicon Valley are any guide, companies love to save money on salaries. So I honestly have no idea why all the men I work with haven't been replaced by women being paid 95% or whatever the claimed pay gap is. And remember, this is in the US, where you can legally be let go because…

> 95% or whatever the claimed pay gap is

According to wikipedia, "the average female's unadjusted annual salary has been cited as being 78% of the average male salary", so you can save a lot.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#199
post #8
post #4

"continued pay disparity" here we go...

It would be interesting to see the data on this. I've worked in software development for 20 years and hired tons of people (maybe over 100). I think that professional jobs have the lowest pay disparity. I would imagine it's really hard to measure the pay gap between programmers because there are literally coders that are 2x or 5x more productive than other coders. So I don't think it's as simple as checking all the p…

Did you pay those 2x to 5x coders 2-5x more than the regular coder?

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#200
post #197
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've seen, there are less African-American and non-white hispanic men in tech than there are white and Asian women, yet I never see this discussed. Is this not an important issue as well? Will skewed racial ratios only be handled after gender parity has been achieved? Or do they not matter at all?

The same people who call attention to gender diversity also speak out for racial diversity. This particular piece focuses on gender because of today's being International Women's Day. http://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/why-cant-silicon-... http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/20/9179853/tech-diversity-sco... https://medium.com/tech-diversity-files/thought-on-diversity...

>The same people who call attention to gender diversity also speak out for racial diversity

Why don't I ever see it being discussed on HN?

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