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Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

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Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#191

Post by sjg007 »

ivemadeahugem wrote: post #122
Frondo wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'd do is this: 1) Vote for politicians who are going to create real structural change in society, e.g. Bernie, not just systems maintainers like Hillary, or rich guys who want to rip us off, like the guy who won. (And really work at a local level to enact structural systems changes!) 2) Work to change the cultural baggage around one's value being tied to one's day job. Make it sexy to be a poet, writer, singer,…

I think it already is sexy to be a poet/writer/singer/whatever... those single women who don't want to marry are getting pregnant with "non-marriagable" men, after all. It becomes a question of, why become economically tied to these sexy losers.

There are lots of studies where they found that the first kid was not the biological offspring of the husband at the time.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#192

Post by walterstucco »

20160226 wrote: post #31
jokoon wrote: post #2

I've started some treatment recently, and for some reason I immediately started dating and looking for mates again. I quickly realized how difficult it is. You can't find women unless you have a job, while women have made outstanding progress in education and the workforce, and for some reason they have a hard time dating people who have a less comfortable situation than themselves. I don't want to ride the whole men…

You can't fight biology. Women are hardwired to look for men with resources or the ability to get them. It comes down to whether a man can provide the woman with a safe and clean place to have her babies. In the past, this signal has taken the form of physical strength, number of slaves, land, goats, whatever. Today, it's jobs and/or money. Then add a layer of the instinctive hunger for status within any social speci…

> Today, it's jobs and/or money.

or being supportive, or making their life better/easier/funnier. I have dated women that were higher status than me and I'm still friend with many of them.

Being nice is a much more appreciated quality than being wealthy, especially if at work they must fight everyday to prove that their value is the same of men in the company, if not higher.

The same applies to women: I prefer nicer ones and, I must say, usually it is associated with higher education.

Not everyone can become rich or have a good job, that's true, but everyone can become a better man.

EDIT: I'm in my 40s, not exactly a kid anymore.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#193

Post by NumberSix »

dv_dt wrote: post #171
NumberSix wrote: post #15

The explanation is that the government massages unemployment figures to make the economy look better than it is. The government has been doing this for decades, under Republicans and Democrats, liberals and conservatives. Unemployment is one of the most widely watched and therefor political numbers; anyone who is in power wants it to look as good as possible. One of the tactics to make the official unemployment rates…

This view really bothers me. The generally reported "unemployment" figure in the media does have the problems you mention. But the US Gov't through Bureau of Labor Statistics puts out all the numbers you say are being hidden. More numbers than a typical person has time to consume in it's entirety. They're just not termed "unemployment", it's labor participation rate or sometimes U-7: https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/L…

This is the opening paragraph of the BLS press release on employment from Feb. 28, 2017. https://www.bls.gov/news.release/srgune.nr0.htm

For release 10:00 a.m. (EST) Tuesday, February 28, 2017 USDL-17-0286

Technical information: (202) 691-6392 * lausinfo@bls.gov * www.bls.gov/lau Media contact: (202) 691-5902 * PressOffice@bls.gov

                REGIONAL AND STATE UNEMPLOYMENT -- 2016 ANNUAL AVERAGES
Annual average unemployment rates decreased in 38 states and the District of Columbia, increased in 9 states, and were unchanged in 3 states in 2016, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. Employment-population ratios increased in 36 states and the District, decreased in 12 states, and were unchanged in 2 states. The U.S. jobless rate declined by 0.4 percentage point from the prior year to 4.9 percent, and the national employment-population ratio rose by 0.4 point to 59.7 percent.

Note that BLS uses the U-3 "unemployment rate" of 4.9 percent without qualifications or explanation. Yes, if you read through the fine print in BLS documentation (not the press release), you can determine that U-3 omits allegedly "discouraged workers" as in fact does the broader U-6 measure as well.

The mass media is following the government/BLS lead in promoting the U-3 measure as the "jobless rate." Again, there is no qualification in the opening paragraph, no mention of the broader U-6 measure or the general issue of purportedly discouraged workers.

The uncritical, almost universal repetition of the U-3 number raises the question of the independence of the major mass media, the so-called Mainstream Media or MSM, and the government, and vice versa.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#194

Post by abandonliberty »

bobbytherobot wrote: post #60
jokoon wrote: post #2

I've started some treatment recently, and for some reason I immediately started dating and looking for mates again. I quickly realized how difficult it is. You can't find women unless you have a job, while women have made outstanding progress in education and the workforce, and for some reason they have a hard time dating people who have a less comfortable situation than themselves. I don't want to ride the whole men…

> One generation behind us, women still sort of relied on men, and now that the tables have turned, women might need to make a compromise. You mean the system was heavily stacked to make women reliant on men. I won't call that a compromise. The tables haven't turned, the game changed. We have drastically removed many of the forces meant to keep women as dependents of men. If the tables had turned, then men would be s…

You are entirely theoretically correct. Unfortunately reality is far more complicated.

You may want to reassess your approach after reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13795367.

In short: Data indicate our current society doesn't function in a world where men aren't substantially better off - and we're equitably continuing to head away from that.

An intelligent, thoughtful, rational approach would be ideal rather than seeking to score points "white knighting" or "feministing" in the gender war.

Or keep picking on them and ignore the problem. Help show the world that feminists are no better than the men they deride. Besides, what type of harm can broken family units and a substantial disillusioned male subclass possibly cause anyway?

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#195

Post by abandonliberty »

PKop wrote: post #126
20160226 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't fight biology. Women are hardwired to look for men with resources or the ability to get them. It comes down to whether a man can provide the woman with a safe and clean place to have her babies. In the past, this signal has taken the form of physical strength, number of slaves, land, goats, whatever. Today, it's jobs and/or money. Then add a layer of the instinctive hunger for status within any social speci…

Not sure why getting downvoted. To dismiss out of hand thousands of years of evolution and think the last 50+ years of modern societal change can completely counteract biological forces is.. wishful thinking? I mean, this explanation is at least as good as any other speculation in this thread.

It's very popular to white knight/feminist with little regard to data or reason right now. This ostracization will lead to more extremism, loss of empathy, and further gender alienation.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#196

Post by abandonliberty »

jokoon wrote: post #2

I've started some treatment recently, and for some reason I immediately started dating and looking for mates again. I quickly realized how difficult it is. You can't find women unless you have a job, while women have made outstanding progress in education and the workforce, and for some reason they have a hard time dating people who have a less comfortable situation than themselves. I don't want to ride the whole men…

>have a hard time dating people who have a less comfortable situation than themselves.

This may be evolutionary wired, but forget about it. That mental model has no potential to help.

Effective relationships must provide value to both parties.

So demonstrate value. "Comfortable situation" is one shortcut to measure value. "Great father", "good listener", "considerate", "sane", "stable" are all incredibly valuable and crazy hard to measure.

The dirty truth: Many men don't provide value.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#197

Post by fallingfrog »

Well if these guys aren't on disability, or married, then how are they getting money for food and rent? The article never answers that question- I don't think the us safety net is comfy enough to provide rent money. Are they all homeless?

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#198

Post by xt00 »

tbrownaw wrote: post #138
xt00 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very true. It's definitely now a situation where we are dealing with the fallout from years of not dealing with the problem. Yea I recently read a story where a factory tried to hire around 50 people and could only hire a small number due to the vast majority failing drug tests. I was actually fairly surprised to hear that. So yea now we are dealing with the problem that has been festering and getting worse for years…

Yea I recently read a story where a factory tried to hire around 50 people and could only hire a small number due to the vast majority failing drug tests. Maybe the problem is whatever stupidity requires/incentivizes employers to police what "their" employees do when not at work?

Companies on the west coast in US generally are becoming pretty soft on marijuana due to the recent law changes, but things like opiates or meth definitely they are screening for. There definitely are instances of risk of injury with equipment at work if they show up high, but also many businesses end up with expensive easy to sell machines suddenly walking off the site. So simply theft alone to support a habit of using drugs often is the reason for screening out drug users. The theft issue I've heard of happening from many business owners and can be pretty substantial. Like 2k a week of equipment disappearing until they figure out who it is. Typically expensive tools and electronics that are easy to sell on Craigslist.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#199

Post by jimmywanger »

Frondo wrote: post #67
bobbytherobot wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One generation behind us, women still sort of relied on men, and now that the tables have turned, women might need to make a compromise. You mean the system was heavily stacked to make women reliant on men. I won't call that a compromise. The tables haven't turned, the game changed. We have drastically removed many of the forces meant to keep women as dependents of men. If the tables had turned, then men would be s…

Yes, this, a thousand times this. People look at stuff like alimony or whatever and think "oh women just get all the breaks". When really, stuff like that exists because women were expected to forego career for marriage, etc., essentially shackled to a man for life. Women being independent, expecting a guy to have his shit together? I think that's great. I say bring it on. Independent women are far more interesting t…

> When really, stuff like that exists because women were expected to forego career for marriage, etc.,

Well, that's the whole point. Family courts are still heavily biased towards women. As long as women and men are not treated differently, and alimony and spousal support are evenly distributed between genders, then yes, "bring it on".

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#200

Post by jimmywanger »

ikeyany wrote: post #188
pm90 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A woman is working for the money and whatever satisfaction she derives from the job itself. A man is working for his ability to attract a girlfriend, his status in society, his entire sense of "value". It's hardly surprising that men are motivated to choose riskier and higher earning careers. I don't mean to go all PC police on you, especially since I agree with the first part of your comment, but this is most cert…

He is saying that women don't need careers to increase their status, but men do. It's more or less implying that women gain value in American society from their looks, rather than their contributions to society. Is it sexist? Is it true? Is it a different story in China?

> Is it a different story in China?

In China, both genders are equally judged on looks. It's common for job applications to require headshots, which I find odd, but apparently that practice also exists in Germany and some South American countries.

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