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Brilliant Jerks Cost More Than They Are Worth

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Re: Brilliant Jerks Cost More Than They Are Worth

#191

Post by watwut »

braveo wrote: post #130
watwut wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or there was an abrasive jerk who made them to do the wrong thing. Abrasive jerk was likely to be the one doing then shouting down. Abrasiveness does not make you right, the assumption that the most pushy jerk is right is just wrong.

Since it apparently wasn't obvious: We should be putting "abrasive jerk" in quotes. The point that was being made by both of us is that these abrasive jerks aren't actually abrasive jerks, they're just going against the grain because it's the technically better choice. And then they get labelled as abrasive jerks and ignored, and then queue the scandal when people talk about how horrible the toyota code is (for examp…

How do you know the jerk is jerking for the technically better choice? You don't. These debate always assume that the person who is doing criticism is right. That is not the case in real life. Criticism can be both right and wrong.

Note that these people did not really bought into his theories and opinions nor were able to follow his instructions - the amount of code review complains would go down it that would be the case. He did not managed to change the culture toward good nor to teach them. His reach was limited by what he was able to micromanage at the moment.

Re: Brilliant Jerks Cost More Than They Are Worth

#192

Post by taurath »

throwanem wrote: post #125
taurath wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having worked at a company with very nice people and no fire to actually get things done (just platitudes), it can be just as bad of an environment if your goal is to succeed. Often times people come in to "play work" and achieve only a fraction of what's possible.

Fire and courtesy are hardly incompatible. But it's more than twice as hard to achieve both as to manage one or the other. It's also a question of circumstance. Right now, for example, I'm working to mitigate, and eventually to resolve, a morale crisis on my team, which exists for good and cogent reasons that don't merit discussion here. Now is not the time for fire - and fire alone in any case works only when the vi…

Fire is not always the solution to any problem of course, but a lack of being results driven can make for large morale problems in itself - especially in engineering where you can keep working on one insignificant detail or another in perpetuity. I've spent months constantly asking for business goals to be set so we can meet them and being told to hang tight. I've left those companies because the environment becomes quite toxic over time, with the "true believers" believing that everything is going swimmingly because they don't have any pressure put on them, and the ones looking to accomplish things spinning their wheels fiercely in the mud.

Re: Brilliant Jerks Cost More Than They Are Worth

#193

Post by thomasrognon »

treebeard901 wrote: post #32
jimktrains2 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ability to tolerate potentially biting criticism that comes with it I wonder if this is the issue really. Some people can't take criticism unless wrapped in sugar. If it's really, and especially if it comes with potential alternatives it should be socially fine, but it's not.

Another aspect is how the rest of the team felt over time. They probably built up deep resentment towards this person which ultimately only fed back into the cycle. So whether or not they were aware of it, they probably formed a clique to team up against this person, again only exacerbating the core issue.

The article claimed he was a 10x and that he was usually right in any disagreement, so he probably built up resentment towards them, too.

Re: Brilliant Jerks Cost More Than They Are Worth

#194

Post by quotemstr »

falsedan wrote: post #156
Waterluvian wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey that's me! I had a frustrating moment the other day where a colleague said that float(5) was more explicit and personally preferred in Python than a literal 5.0 I realised I was being pedantic but I genuinely believed in "good craftsmanship" when I really pushed him to change it. I need to get better at this because the social friction I caused may cost more than the poor craftsmanship. But the other part of me i…

This one's tricky, because you're absolutely right, and telling them that won't help them improve. Try asking them, "hey I must have not read that PEP, can you link me to where that's recommended so I can get in sync?", or "hey I read this guide recently and it recommends doing X because ", or (best), "I don't understand why this is recommended, where can I learn more" (which hopefully doesn't end up on a holistic le…

Why appeal to authority here? Experienced, well-intentioned developers should able to have a discussion of the merits of a particular construct without having to turn the discussion into a citation count contest.

FWIW, I'm firmly on the 5.0 side.

Re: Brilliant Jerks Cost More Than They Are Worth

#195

Post by gnahckire »

phil21 wrote: post #95
seoknucklehead wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking the same thing. There are diminishing returns with most jerks if they are marginally better than the rest of the team, but if they are 10x better, maybe you just need a team of 1.

One of my favorite interview stories was when I was interviewing for a very low-level dev position at a major telecom. I was interviewing to become member #8 or so on this team. It was for writing dial-up internet billing software, essentially grant/deny access and provide hours connected to the dial-in banks. Nothing all that crazy, a pretty solved problem honestly by that point. I asked them what they were replacin…

to their defense pearl IS a write only language... /s

Re: Brilliant Jerks Cost More Than They Are Worth

#196

Post by mikejmoffitt »

xiaoma wrote: post #62
smallnamespace wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OTOH, you can make a pretty strong argument that for, say, MS, Oracle, or Apple, it's precisely the 'jerk-y' qualities of their founders and CEOs that led to their success today. Say what you like about MS's business practices during the 90s, but I think the history shows that a large reason they were able to continue their dominance was because of the unfair and frankly anticompetitive practices that they embraced b…

It was directed inward, too. "That's the dumbest fucking idea I've ever heard," was a common phrase at MS in the 90s.

Context is everything. Profanity and hyperbole are as far from the aloof and stuffy professional language one uses with unfamiliar people or those in higher positions. It's something that becomes appropriate in personally close and comfortable quarters, and it can be a signal of comradery.

Re: Brilliant Jerks Cost More Than They Are Worth

#197

Post by notacoward »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #128
xanderstrike wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Survivorship bias. In more ways than one. When jerks are allowed to be jerks, people who do not want to deal with jerks leave the company. So the jerks bubble up to the top, while otherwise great engineers who don't want to be berated move along to better things.

Exactly . You have to pick: either the jerks, or the people who the jerks drive away. And that doesn't take into account the people who aren't quite driven away but find work that much more unpleasant as a result. If you encounter many skilled jerks, consider why that might be, and why in the same environment you don't also encounter skilled people who are fun to work with. In such an environment, the skilled people…

> If you encounter many skilled jerks, consider why that might be

Often that might be because the viewer is unaware of their own jerkness, and only sees others reciprocating.

Re: Brilliant Jerks Cost More Than They Are Worth

#198

Post by quotemstr »

tlogan wrote: post #172
beachy wrote: post #13

> A “No Jerks” Policy Must Be Built Into Your Culture. It is entirely possible to be extremely passionate (and even brilliant) without being a jerk. A “no jerks” policy must be preached and practiced from the highest levels. Following simplistic rules like this is usually what leaves us knee deep in the proverbial. Maybe I've been lucky, but I've never worked with anyone who's as much of a jerk as described in the ar…

I belive that "no jerks" policy basically means that everybody needs to be nice and civil with each other. This does not mean that mistakes are allowed and things are done by consensus. The problem with jerks is that they are jerks: people do not like them and it is hard to work with them and that is not good. Nothing else. Sometimes that is ok - but in many cases it is not ok since team and project needs to grow int…

The problem is that the meaning of "civility" is mutable. Too often, "being civil" or "being nice" or "being respectful" ends up meaning going along with the flow and not challenging the group consensus.

Re: Brilliant Jerks Cost More Than They Are Worth

#199

Post by w00tw00tw00t »

wott wrote: post #144
w00tw00tw00t wrote: post #27

to call anyone a "jerk" is something that only jerks do, but everyone looks at themselves as holier than thou. We're all flawed in some way. Labeling people (or attacking people) as "jerks" is in profound violation the principle of non-violent communication, to say the least, and, by the way, so is down-voting those who are critical of the prevailing opinion here without a civil counter argument ;-)

> to call anyone a "jerk" is something that only jerks do What about people who call "jerks" people who call someone a jerk? :-D

recursion limit of 0 on this stack!

Re: Brilliant Jerks Cost More Than They Are Worth

#200

Post by w00tw00tw00t »

sokoloff wrote: post #166
w00tw00tw00t wrote: post #27

to call anyone a "jerk" is something that only jerks do, but everyone looks at themselves as holier than thou. We're all flawed in some way. Labeling people (or attacking people) as "jerks" is in profound violation the principle of non-violent communication, to say the least, and, by the way, so is down-voting those who are critical of the prevailing opinion here without a civil counter argument ;-)

Here's the thing: some people are jerks. Calling a jerk a jerk is fine, IMO. (Some people are racists; calling a racist a racist is also OK.) Avoiding calling someone exhibiting a negative behavior by the accepted label for that behavior is healthier than tiptoeing around and pretending that Hannibal Lecter just has different dietary preferences and that's OK.

If not Hitler than Hannibal Lecter

My point is that we're all jerks, one way or another, just don't really know it or admit to it, but we know that everyone has done something that warrants them being called a jerk by someone. No one lives a whole life without being called a jerk by someone. I once thought Mother Theresa was a jerk for being so nice. These labels are subjective and inflammatory. and don't help the situation.

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