A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France • Hacker News Board

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#191

Post by leppr » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 5:39 PM UTC

mtw wrote: post #89

hartator wrote: post #51

Don't go there. The limit of freedom of speech is real and can block you. Even when you run a startup that has nothing to do with local politics or anything controversial. Plus, we are still in "state of emergency", that gives the state more rights than the patriot act. Go to the US, Canada or New Zealand.

In France, freedom of speech is limited for terrorism, hate speech, hating religions e.g. For example, encouraging racism, lauding Hitler or ISIS, or extreme versions of islam or christianism which limit women's rights etc. The only difference with US or Canada is that religion extremism is more "tolerated" in those countries, but that is NOT an issue for startups. Unless you're doing a religion startup??!? The real…

>In France, freedom of speech is limited for terrorism, hate speech, hating religions e.g. For example, encouraging racism, lauding Hitler or ISIS, or extreme versions of islam or christianism which limit women's rights etc.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#192

Post by Chris2048 » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 5:39 PM UTC

guelo wrote: post #161

hacker_9 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone from the UK, my main reason for not moving anywhere else in Europe is the language barrier. I'm not even sure I'm capable of learning another language; 5 years in school trying to learn French + German, and can still only put together about two sentences. From what I remember, no one else seemed to really pick up the languages either.

Since brits will probably be loosing their EU work visas soon you probably don't have to worry about having to learn another language any more.

*losing

And English will still be widely used. Even after the rest of the EU breaks up..

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#193

Post by jjawssd » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 5:40 PM UTC

mavdi wrote: post #13

Great move. This is how US started a golden age. Encouraging outlooking and talented migrants with ZERO public money spent on getting them to that level. Free talent. And btw, outlooking and talented migrants are exactly the kind that will want to blend in and cause no problems.

The first step of a golden age is reduction of red tape.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#194

Post by bsaul » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 5:40 PM UTC

hocuspocus wrote: post #152

bsaul wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, well, you can blame the "risk aversion" mentality though. It's a true waste of talent for the country.

There's very little risk in joining a startup in France. You'll get almost exactly the same benefits as someone working at a big co. Work hours, vacation, retirement, healthcare, unemployment: everything is regulated by labor laws. But when a new grad from a top school can get 40k at a startup, no bonus no equity, or 70-80k total comp at Google, it's a no-brainer.

A new grad from top school shouldn't think about salary, but equity. Either as founder , or cofounder, or employee.

The reason he chooses salary over equity is because it's a safer bet.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#195

Post by throwaway1892 » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 5:41 PM UTC

mamadrood wrote: post #168

throwaway1892 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say 46+ k€, before taxes, which are 33% corporate tax rate and ~30% on personal income. But I'm not sure how it applies to people with tech visa.

46k is really low in France for an experienced dev and that's outside of Paris. Junior dev engineer earn at least 45k when they begin in Paris, and it gets to 60k in about 5-10 years. Also corporate taxes are about 23% but you're right on personal income.

Well, my 36k salary, while working around Paris, disagree with your assertion.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#196

Post by jjawssd » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 5:42 PM UTC

kybernetyk wrote: post #127

MicroBerto wrote: post #55

Does the 33% corporate tax rate and ~30% personal income tax rate (at a €30k salary) apply to them?

For the startups: Don't think so. Corporations need to generate profits to pay taxes. ;) The personal income taxes apply though. The other huge problem with France (and Europe in general) is the problem that you can't fire bad/unneeded employees easily. Continental Europe is a bad environment for young companies that need to be agile. Too much red tape and regulation. And when you survive all that, the state is going…

> For the startups: Don't think so. Corporations need to generate profits to pay taxes. ;)

You are contradicting your own point. A startup with zero profit can still be taxed at a very high rate and pay almost zero taxes simply because there is no profit to be taxed. But the rule would still apply in this case.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#197

Post by esfandia » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 5:42 PM UTC

The "4-year renewable" visa would make me hesitate, unless you don't mind going back to where you came from in case your business didn't work out or you got laid off. The feeling that you're in a temporary situation can't be very nice, and will prevent you from fully committing and settling down properly.

Why not offer a Green Card or some other kind of Permanent Residency?

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#198

Post by omio » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 5:42 PM UTC

EnglishInFrance wrote: post #57

renaudg wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a healthy number of startups in Paris where English is the working language. It's true that day to day life may be more challenging without speaking any French, but probably less so in Paris than elsewhere

I disagree. I've heard this from people here, however after living here for some time, I believe the reality is that if you don't speak fluent French, you will be at a severe disadvantage.

This is my experience as well. You need to speak French.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#199

Post by gman83 » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 5:42 PM UTC

hacker_9 wrote: post #79

jlangenauer wrote: post #5

Apropos of this, I was in Paris recently at a startup event, and was pleasantly shocked at the sheer number of startups and people I saw doing things. This is a good move by the French, and will help attract entrepreneurs away from other countries (particularly like those just across the channel currently inflicting generational economic damage on themselves.)

As someone from the UK, my main reason for not moving anywhere else in Europe is the language barrier. I'm not even sure I'm capable of learning another language; 5 years in school trying to learn French + German, and can still only put together about two sentences. From what I remember, no one else seemed to really pick up the languages either.

If you go somewhere like Amsterdam you wouldn't have any problems since everyone speaks English.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#200

Post by LeifCarrotson » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 5:43 PM UTC

mamadrood wrote: post #158

danjoc wrote: post #122

No. Sorry. Not interested... French crypto regulations are absurd. https://yro.slashdot.org/story/16/03/03/235220/french-bill-c...

The article is misleading. This legislation [1] only apply to terrorism acts. And basically every modern country that was targeted has similar laws [2]. [1] http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/14/amendements/3515/AN/90.... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law

That's a use case that was emphasized, but it doesn't appear that the government's actually aware of that limitation:

> M. Pierre Lellouche ... told the National Assembly. “They deliberately use the argument of public freedoms to make money knowing full well that the encryption used to[sic] drug traffickers, to serious [criminals] and especially to terrorists. It is unacceptable that the state loses any control over encryption..."

And whether or not it is supposed to "only apply to terrorism acts", there's no cryptographic algorithm that has a case for "secure unless the government is investigating an act of terrorism".

The point is that French law requires applications to be designed in such a way that key disclosure will allow customer data to be extracted. Signal, WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, Apple iMessage, and other end-to-end apps would be illegal.