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US government to withdraw longstanding warnings about cholesterol (2015)

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Re: US government to withdraw longstanding warnings about cholesterol (2015)

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When disproving a need, an anecdote is pretty effective.

Except nobody is claiming all runners need a high carb diet. If anyone actually claimed that it was that most runners would benefit from a high carb diet (I have no idea if anyone actually makes this claim scientifically).

Plenty of people make that claim, just search carbohydrate loading. The scientific reasoning is very simple. Aerobic exercise performance is limited by the rate of oxygen uptake, turning fats into usable energy takes considerably more oxygen than it does for CHO. You can in a single race/session exhaust your glycogen stores, but the supply of fats is essentially limitless. So for ideal performance you want to maximize your glycogen stores before an event, and for long ones, take additional CHO during, though rate of consumption is usually significantly higher than replenishment through digestion if you are going at all fast.

That point when you have exhausted your glycogen stores is what they call bonking. Now you can fine-tune your low carb diet to hopefully have enough glycogen at any point to sustain you through an exercise session (more realistic for running than cycling) but everyone else just eats a high-carb diet.

Re: US government to withdraw longstanding warnings about cholesterol (2015)

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your point about statins. The Bloomberg article you linked said statins were very effective in preventing heart attacks, just not necessarily due to their cholesterol-lowering effect. If that's the case, statins would still seem to be warranted in a lot of people.

For people who do not already have heart disease, statins have no apparent benefit. For people who have had a heart attack, statins are indeed useful. Not because of its cholesterol lowering effect, but due to its ability to dial back inflammation in arteries. For more on this here's yet another Bloomberg article on statins: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2008-01-16/do-choles... So you are right, statins are…

Any argument you're trying to make is weakened when you use bloomberg or NYT as citations.

Why don't people link to the actual studies?

Re: US government to withdraw longstanding warnings about cholesterol (2015)

#194
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just as an example: 9% of the cases of Idiosyncratic Drug-induced Liver Injury is self-harm caused by people taking non-regulated dietary supplements: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18955056 You have a theory that the average person will wisely assume the responsibility to vet the health effects of what they consume, but empirical reality disagrees with your theory. Right now people are injuring themselves with…

And people will also choose to eat potato chips, not exercise, smoke, and drink heavily. You can't protect people from themselves, and even if it was an ethical government job to do so, i.e. take away people's freedoms because the government says it knows better, like with marijuana (I am REALLY humoring you, if you can't tell), there is no practical argument either. How much do you think your high estimate of X% who…

> You can't protect people from themselves

You can't protect all people from themselves, but you can protect a lot of people from themselves.

If you look at smoking [1] in the US, smoking went from 42.4% in 1965 to 16.8% in 2014. Raising awareness, taxing cigarettes, outlawing advertising, warnings on packaging, these things work.

The same could be done with alcohol if society wanted. One of the reasons why it hasn't happened with alcohol is because alcohol is ingrained into our culture.

> by the percentage of people saved by life saving drugs that make it to market faster/would otherwise be blocked.

Do you have any estimates for this? Do you have estimates about how many people would die by allowing poorly-vetted drugs on the market?

> which of course goes down significantly when people realize that they shouldn't blindly trust everything in our markets

How would you suggest the average person go about evaluating a drug/treatment?

> sentenced to die directly by rejecting appeals from terminally ill patients to get access to experimental drugs/procedures

sentenced to die implies that experimental drugs/procedures would save them. Undoubtedly some could be saved, but I doubt it would be more than a small fraction.

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/tables/trends/ci...

Re: US government to withdraw longstanding warnings about cholesterol (2015)

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And people will also choose to eat potato chips, not exercise, smoke, and drink heavily. You can't protect people from themselves, and even if it was an ethical government job to do so, i.e. take away people's freedoms because the government says it knows better, like with marijuana (I am REALLY humoring you, if you can't tell), there is no practical argument either. How much do you think your high estimate of X% who…

Over-regulation prevents what we call in the software world "rapid iteration". It may take more time for the dust to settle, but eventually the best solutions naturally rise to the top by this method.

The 'dust' in your metaphor are human lives.

Most software does not involve life-and-death situations. In cases that do, e.g. the space shuttle, they don't use rapid iteration [1].

[1] https://www.nap.edu/read/2222/chapter/5#48

Re: US government to withdraw longstanding warnings about cholesterol (2015)

#196
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think their understanding of nutrition is up-to-date, but focuses on kidney health, not just weight, or the realities of the current American diet. Whole grains are great and very healthy, and a high-carb diet rich in whole grains and with an appropriate level of calories will be great. On the other hand, while a ketogenic diet is great for weight control and cardiovascular health, they're probably much worse for y…

> If you're really committed to a super-healthy diet, you should probably eat lots of carbs, but the right carbs--complex and mixed with fiber Then you should stop referring to them as carbs and just refer specifically to fiber. Way less confusion.

If you're looking to avoid confusion you should refer to them as starches, they are the complex carbs (such as rice, beans, potatoes etc.) that give us energy and should form the largest proportion of any healthy diet.

- These starches should preferably be unrefined (yes, quit that white bread, discover the great taste of brown rice) and eaten alongside some green and yellow vegetables to get extra vitamins, minerals and fibre.

- If you're trying to lose weight faster, avoid consuming oil and fatty foods (e.g. nuts, avocado), use sparingly otherwise.

- Avoid dairy products at all costs.

- Add meat in small amounts if you really can't live without it.

You'll be getting more than your daily calorie/vitamin/mineral/fibre needs, and by not eating a tonne of refined carbs, fats, dairy, and meat you'll be less of a burden on the planet/country/healthcare systems too!

I mostly follow the above advice, but I'm pragmatic when eating out, not everywhere caters to a vegan/plant based diet, or even vegetarian. So while you'll occasionally catch me eating a delicious chicken burger or even possibly a steak, 99%* of the time I eat a plant based diet with zero added oil.

As for the myth of sugar turning to fat: it's a process known as de novo lipogenesis, and yes it happens efficiently in cows, but in humans not so much unless you're eating carbs in greatly excess of your body's energy needs[0]. In 99%* of normal circumstances, the human body will increase its metabolism to cope with the extra calories from carbs. The problem really _is_ consuming too much fat.

* estimated ;)

[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10365981 "Only when CHO energy intake exceeds TEE [total energy expenditure] does DNL [de novo lipogenesis] in liver or adipose tissue contribute significantly to the whole-body energy economy. It is concluded that DNL is not the pathway of first resort for added dietary CHO, in humans."

Re: US government to withdraw longstanding warnings about cholesterol (2015)

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a complete idiot when it comes to what drug is going to have what effect on me. That's why I consult an expert: a doctor.

You're choosing your own doctor, right? Do you just blindly take whatever the doctor prescribes to you without doing your own research? How do you know your doctor is an expert? I'm pretty sure my doctor is not an expert in lots of things pertaining to medicine. He's not studying all the new research. That doesn't mean I can't have a conversation with him, but it's healthy to be skeptical of doctors too...that's why…

"Do you blindly take whatever the doctor prescribes to you without doing your own research?"

Yes, and the more serious or painful the issue is, the more likely I am to blindly take the stuff. I'm simply not rational: I know this happens to a few other people as well, who all have migraines. Some folks willingly admit that when the migraine gets bad enough, it really doesn't matter if they overdose on pain medication because that would make the pain stop: I was similar with my gall bladder pain. Didn't care what they shot into my veins, so long as I stopped dropping to the floor in pain.

"if people are so stupid like the OP suggested, why not ban a while plethora of foods like twinkies, potato chips, soda, etc?"

We have to an extent: A lot of schools have taken such snacks out, for example, and some have tried to stop folks on welfare from buying any of it. And we tax it. But the real reason we don't do that is because food carries its own risks that aren't nearly as instantly deadly as drugs. The main exception is new food products, colorants, and flavors. Now, I'm a little fuzzy on the actual regulation, but there are approved and non-approved things to use for food, and I was thinking you had to prove it generally safe for humans. I could be wrong on this bit, however.

Re: US government to withdraw longstanding warnings about cholesterol (2015)

#198
post #97

This doesn't go far enough. That there is a link between high cholesterol and heart disease is only a hypotheses, not a scientifically proven fact. Lowering cholesterol does not necessarily lower heart disease. Read more here: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/opinion/27taubes.html Because the link between excessive LDL cholesterol and cardiovascular disease has been so widely accepted, the Food and Drug Administrati…

Your comment reminds me of a thread I read in the Primal Diet's forum. http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/forum/the-primal-bluepr...

Quite a few of them are having heart attacks: "So my first heart attack, 8 years after a stroke, was unexpected. My heart is determined to kill me. I've had at least 4 attacks, the last one keeping me in hospital 6 days"

Yet they still all stay on that diet, because of some convincing bloggers with no credentials as doctors or researchers and some conspiracy theories.

Re: US government to withdraw longstanding warnings about cholesterol (2015)

#200
I use to look around in a naive way and take my conclusions:

- Grandfather, 89, ate everything moderately during his life, mostly organic. He evites fat and bread and walks every day. Low energy person.

- Grandmother, passed at 82, cancer. Same diet as my grandfather. Much less exercise though.

- Grandmother, 92, ate a lot until 50's, mostly organic, obese. Since then barely eats, mostly vegetables and yogurt. Right weight and good health. No exercise.

- Grandfather, passed at 71. Ate more fat than anyone I know. Death by heart attack or stroke. Very energetic person with a lot of exercise.

Can you see a pattern? I can't.

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