Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The problem is that now simply providing user-friendly output is not enough. For every program or script you throw together you need to provide the text output for the user, and then the type object stream for piping. In PowerShell if the result of a command is just an object the object is pretty-printed to the console in practice ends up looking pretty much like what a Unix command would have given you.
> in practice ends up looking pretty much like what a Unix command would have given you. So... no real improvement, then?
The Rule of Silence (2006)
191–200 of 318 posts
Re: The Rule of Silence (2006)
#192To play devil's advocate, part of the reason things like The Rule of Silence are talked about is because of the messy unix philosophy of treating everything like plain text. If structured data was embraced we would have developed appropriate tooling to interact with it in the way that we prefer. This runs very deep in unix and a lot of people are too "brainwashed" to think of other ways. Instead they develop other ex…
Re: The Rule of Silence (2006)
#193To play devil's advocate, part of the reason things like The Rule of Silence are talked about is because of the messy unix philosophy of treating everything like plain text. If structured data was embraced we would have developed appropriate tooling to interact with it in the way that we prefer. This runs very deep in unix and a lot of people are too "brainwashed" to think of other ways. Instead they develop other ex…
Re: The Rule of Silence (2006)
#194Earlier quoted context omitted.
The Windows way of working is only "self-evidently" horrible if you're used to the Unix way of doing things. There are real defects that are legacy baggage (running as admin by default is not good, the registry probably shouldn't be a single database or at least should have better segregation between apps) but having a UI and having real objects in the shell isn't one of them. And I hardly think the registry and Powe…
S/PowerShell/Windows Scripting Host/ ... which was later than the registry, but not much.
Re: The Rule of Silence (2006)
#195I wish I could find that old thing about ordering a burger at the Unix restaurant, where the clerk keeps giving you cryptic responses when you order wrong and then, when you do successfully order, says nothing, leaving you wondering whether your order has been accepted or not.
Probably this: http://xahlee.info/UnixResource_dir/_fastfood_dir/fastfood.h... I hadn't heard of it until now. Thanks for the good read!
Re: The Rule of Silence (2006)
#196Earlier quoted context omitted.
Structured text is good. Very good, in fact. It might even be idea. structured binary data , less so, at least as a storage format. I want to be able to look at your file format using tools that haven't been specialized to the task. Is that so wrong?
Well, I'm advocating for structured text , not binary . Mostly because I haven't seen a future-proof binary format yet, and editing binary formats indeed would require special tooling. I think - for a data exchange protocol meant to be used between many applications - going structured text instead of binary is a worthwhile tradeoff of little lower efficiency vs. much better accessibility. EDIT: Some comments here are…
Re: The Rule of Silence (2006)
#197To play devil's advocate, part of the reason things like The Rule of Silence are talked about is because of the messy unix philosophy of treating everything like plain text. If structured data was embraced we would have developed appropriate tooling to interact with it in the way that we prefer. This runs very deep in unix and a lot of people are too "brainwashed" to think of other ways. Instead they develop other ex…
You are forgetting a crucial point: plain text is very well defined. Actually, it was already defined when the first Unix tools were being written. Using plain text means that you can use grep to search the logs of your program, even if your program was written yesterday and grep was written 40 years ago.
Structured data? In which format? Who will define the UNIQUE format to be used from now on for every tool? The same people who chose Javascript as the web programming language?
Do you realize that choosing plain text prevented any IE6-like monstrosity from happening?
Re: The Rule of Silence (2006)
#198To play devil's advocate, part of the reason things like The Rule of Silence are talked about is because of the messy unix philosophy of treating everything like plain text. If structured data was embraced we would have developed appropriate tooling to interact with it in the way that we prefer. This runs very deep in unix and a lot of people are too "brainwashed" to think of other ways. Instead they develop other ex…
In 1993, someone made exactly your argument a in Redmond board room, and so many people agreed that what you describe could be adequately called "The Windows Philosophy". All settings in a database and not text files (the registry); a command-line that pipes data, not text (PowerShell). Tailored UIs to change settings, not magic invocations and obsure text file syntaxes. I guess most developers on HN are also aware o…
Re: The Rule of Silence (2006)
#199To play devil's advocate, part of the reason things like The Rule of Silence are talked about is because of the messy unix philosophy of treating everything like plain text. If structured data was embraced we would have developed appropriate tooling to interact with it in the way that we prefer. This runs very deep in unix and a lot of people are too "brainwashed" to think of other ways. Instead they develop other ex…
I remember getting fairly excited when Apple OSX first came out and quite a few of the configuration files were XML-based. Finally, a consistent format, but it wasn't pervasive enough. Even Apple couldn't see fit to break with the past.
I've even contemplated rewriting some core utils as an experiment to spit out XML (because I didn't know about typed objects at the time), but I lack the skillset.
I know we can't (and maybe we shouldn't) change Unix and its derivatives. There's too much invested in the way things work to pull the rug out. But, when a new OS comes along that wants to do something interesting, I hope the authors will take a look at designing the interface between programs rather than just spitting out or consuming whatever semi-structured ball of text that felt right at the time.
Wouldn't it be neat, for example, if instead of 'ls' spitting out lines of text, which sometimes fit the terminal window, sometimes not, which contain a date field which is in the local user's locale format, which is in a certain column which is dependent on the switches passed to the command, instead you get structured, typed information, ISO-formatted date and time, etc. On the presentation side, you can make it look like any old listing from ls if you like, rather than mashing the data and presentation layer together. I'd like to imagine such a system would be more robust than one where we could never change the column the date was in for fear of breaking a billion scripts.
Re: The Rule of Silence (2006)
#200Earlier quoted context omitted.
With cat being the notable exception :-)
And grep. Programs that use the input and output to carry data around can not show prompts to the user.