Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps • Hacker News Board

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#191

Post by dilipd » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 5:49 PM UTC

andars wrote: post #155

astrodust wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't think the US didn't do everything it could to antagonize the enemy. Japan was repeatedly slapped in the face until it had no choice but to respond to protect its honour. I'm not saying what Japan did was in any way noble, but it was certainly far from unexpected. The US administration knew the war in Europe was a serious problem if left unchecked, that Britain and its allies would never prevail, but there was c…

Japan was "repeatedly slapped in the face" because of their increasing militarization, invasion of China (also Rape of Nanking), alliance with Italy and Germany, desire for control of all of East Asian (the Co-Prosperity Sphere), etc. The US response seems totally reasonable to me.

Correct! Repeatedly slapping Japan was reasonable because of Japan's imperial ambitions, e.g. Taiwan(1895), Manchuria(1905), Korea(1910) etc. And, England and some other European countries were not 'repeatedly slapped', even though they were also imperialist, may be far longer, may be far worse!

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#192

Post by knz » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 5:49 PM UTC

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #149

djsumdog wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the US et. al. cut off fuel and oil trade. They don't teach you that part in school. The saddest thing about WWII is that the people who started the war, by funding it, were never brought up on charges at Nuremberg. Prescott Bush and Standard Oil made millions off selling fuel to both sides. IBM made the punch-card based catalogue service for the Nazis. Henry Ford's company made tank treads for both allied and…

The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour was a strategic preëmptive strike, because they knew the US would come after their empire at some point. I don't think Japanese imperialism can really be defended. Of course, Japanese imperialism was very much inspired by European imperialism in… well, everything. But that doesn't make it right either, merely just as bad.

> because they knew the US would come after their empire at some point.

This makes it sound as if the US only acted to end competition against another Empire. Japan invaded numerous territories for access to resources and committed horrible atrocities while doing so.

The attack on Pearl Harbour may have been preemptive but the only reason for Japan to fear attack from others was due to actions of the Japanese.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#193

Post by munificent » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 5:49 PM UTC

wehadfun wrote: post #174

TulliusCicero wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems uncomfortable, but how does it compare to how the Japanese treated the Chinese during the war? Why does that matter? Does one atrocity excuse another? > Its easy to look back now and think America was terrible but lets not forget that World War Freaking 2 was happening at the time. We were much less terrible than the powers we were fighting against. That doesn't mean we didn't also do some terrible things.

>Why does that matter? Does one atrocity excuse another? Absolutely if they are related. If you witness a guy setting your neighbors house on fire, then he sets the house across the street on fire. Then you committing the "atrocity" of running him over with your car it is excused. And if a couple of his buddies that were with him die in the process its excused as well.

I think a better analogy in this case is:

You witness a guy setting your neighbor's house on fire, then he sets the house across the street on fire.

So you find everyone whose eyes are the same color as your neighbor and run over them with your car.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#194

Post by rybosome » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 5:51 PM UTC

SixSigma wrote: post #165

altendo wrote: post #47

The recent speculation about a national registry for Muslims - and what that may look like - makes this even more poignant. The times may have changed, but fear and ignorance have not.

Japanese-Americans or Japanese immigrants didn't have a history of shooting, stabbing, running over or exploding things.

How many such incidents have occurred? How many Muslim people exist in the world? Is it justifiable to violate the civil liberties of a large group (and set the stage for something much worse) when this ratio is quite small?

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#195

Post by diyorgasms » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 5:52 PM UTC

relieferator wrote: post #161

If this kind of crap has to be done it should be done right. Provide adequate housing, food, transportation. Treat humans as humans, not animals.

This kind of shit should never happen. Period.

It is the duty of every decent human to fight this sort of tyranny by any means necessary.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#196

Post by ZeroGravitas » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 5:53 PM UTC

GunboatDiplomat wrote: post #172

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Major General Smedley Butler, in 1935: "At each session of Congress the question of further naval appropriations comes up. The swivel-chair admirals of Washington (and there are always a lot of them) are very adroit lobbyists. And they are smart. They don't shout that "We need a lot of battleships to war on this nation or that nation." Oh no. First of all, they let it be known that America is menaced by a great naval…

Does it not matter that we were running those maneuvers largely in response to Japanese aggression in China and the Pacific? Does it matter that the reason we were in tension with Japan was their murder and conquest spree in China? Does any of it excuse the Japanese surprise attack on Pearl Harbor? I think the answer is no, despite my great respect for General Butler.

It appears that if that was the real reason, then the government of the time wasn't prepared to tell anyone that was the case, going by the General's account anyway.

Many of the things he suggest merely re-align incentives. So if the Senators and Corporate CEOs really think that Japan is a menace to be dealt with, then they should be putting their money where their mouth is, rather than having the moral hazard of benefiting selfishly from unnecessary wars.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#197

Post by knz » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 5:54 PM UTC

laumars wrote: post #167

chrishacken wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Japan was repeatedly slapped in the face until it had no choice but to respond to protect its honour. Are you kidding me? So honor was their reason to start a war that eventually caused millions to die?

You're taking his brief argument far too literally. Of course there was more at play than honour alone. However reasons aside, I'd argue your comment is moot as there's never a good reason to start a war. Edit: wow I'm surprised by the downvotes. Are you (who ever you are) suggesting you do agree with starting wars? I'd be very interested to hear why you disagree with me.

I didn't downvote you but personally I feel conflict can be justified - stopping the Holocaust and defeating the nation that committed genocide and atrocities such as the Rape of Nanking were enough justification without considering the invasion of a huge number of sovereign territories.

It disgusts me that the world has sat by during recent genocides.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#198

Post by Forlien » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 5:54 PM UTC

wehadfun wrote: post #174

TulliusCicero wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems uncomfortable, but how does it compare to how the Japanese treated the Chinese during the war? Why does that matter? Does one atrocity excuse another? > Its easy to look back now and think America was terrible but lets not forget that World War Freaking 2 was happening at the time. We were much less terrible than the powers we were fighting against. That doesn't mean we didn't also do some terrible things.

>Why does that matter? Does one atrocity excuse another? Absolutely if they are related. If you witness a guy setting your neighbors house on fire, then he sets the house across the street on fire. Then you committing the "atrocity" of running him over with your car it is excused. And if a couple of his buddies that were with him die in the process its excused as well.

But in this example Japanese Americans weren't his buddies, they were innocent people taken from their homes without trial. Going back to your example, let's ignore the issue of a lack of trial with vigilante justice. If instead you ran over him and another innocent passerby, is your example still clear-cut?

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#199

Post by MaxfordAndSons » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 5:55 PM UTC

leurfete wrote: post #130

MaxfordAndSons wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting to note, this went both ways: my grandfather was a naturalized German immigrant, and was sent to the Pacific when drafted because he was disallowed from fighting in Europe. But of course, for some reason, German Americans weren't interned...

Germans and Italians were also interned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_German_Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Italian_American...

Yea, learned this today. Seems to be that it was of a significantly smaller percentage than of Japanese Americans though.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#200

Post by colmvp » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 5:58 PM UTC

wehadfun wrote: post #156

It seems uncomfortable, but how does it compare to how the Japanese treated the Chinese during the war? Its easy to look back now and think America was terrible but lets not forget that World War Freaking 2 was happening at the time. If your beloved son just got killed at Perl Harbor you probably would have no issue with this at all. Hell you probably feel like it is not bad enough. Its just like all these self right…

As a Chinese person, I recognize the Japanese did a lot of shitty things in the war and haven't acknowledge much of it, but comparing what they did to what the U.S. did to what the German's did to what the Russian's did is a meaningless exercise in relative privation. I'd hope that a country's conviction is not solely based on what others do and instead based on the principles that they stand for.

Secondly, by your justification of Japanese Internment, we could say that we should intern all Muslims in the United States because of 9/11, declaration of war by ISIL, and domestic terrorist acts. Or that all German's and Italian's should've been interned by the United States because of American soldiers killed by Axis countries. We should be very aware of the difference between people who come to the U.S. and build a life from themselves versus those who are actively participating in a foreign country. Aside from ethnicity/religion, they are not one in the same.

Also most people recognize Afghanistan as a justified retaliation especially when you consider the number of allies who decided to join in. But Bush was wrong for the Iraq War as it was justified on the flimsiest of 'evidence' and the nation building that happened afterwards was nothing short of a disaster (and that's based on testimonies from people who worked on that project over in Iraq).