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Attacking discrimination with smarter machine learning

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Re: Attacking discrimination with smarter machine learning

#191
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The general abstract idea is: you have some input "score" which is know to inaccurately predict the outcome, use the input score and measurements of its biases to produce more accurate prediction than naive threshold classifier would. Why don't you quote the place in the paper where they make accuracy go up, fix overfitting, or build an improved risk score? Or even just quote a place in the paper where the risk score…

OK, I see what's the problem. By "higher score" I meant "higher score than the other group for given default risk ", not "higher score than the other group on average ". So, by my nomenclature, fig. 7.1 shows Blacks having "higher" (call it inflated ) FICO scores because for every N an N% risk Black scores higher than an N% risk Asian. At the same time fig. 7.2 shows Blacks having lower scores in general , which must…

Yes, blacks have lower average FICO and FICO is also biased in their favor.

But this paper is NOT about correcting that bias. If it was then it would be a pretty short paper:

Abstract: Go use isotonic regression in scikit-learn, once for each group.

References: Some papers from the 1970's when isotonic regression was developed.

http://scikit-learn.org/stable/modules/calibration.html

...but at the same time I think I'm right that this happens because FICO score already is racist to begin with...

This is also incorrect. The conclusions of the paper would remain valid if FICO were calibrated identically for all groups.

Can I suggest reading the paper and working through the math?

Re: Attacking discrimination with smarter machine learning

#192
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole purpose of insurance is to normalize the price. Without insurance, people who take the most risks with their health/driving would be more likely to pay (or at least owe) millions, while the health-conscious and risk-averse would generally pay much closer to $0 (until they get old or unlucky). It's interesting that insurance premiums can act as behavioral incentives in some cases, but I doubt it has ever led…

No, the purpose of insurance is to hedge the risks (i.e. one would prefer to take 0$ than to take a 50-50 bet on 1000$). For example, the price of bond insurance is not normalized between bonds with different ratings.

Risk analysis is just an implementation detail that aids price discovery in a competitive market. If an insurance provider can identify customers with lower risk than the consensus, they can offer lower premiums and attract that business. If they identify customers with higher risk, they can charge higher premiums and push that unprofitable business to a competitor.

Supposing this price discovery were perfect, customers who make a claim would have already paid premiums equal to the claim, and customers who never make a claim would pay nothing (plus fees in each case). This aspect of insurance obviously serves no core purpose. The purposeless of it is just hidden in the noise of uncertainty, and we see pricing differences emerge out of the uncertainty.

The actual purpose is to blunt the effect of catastrophic losses by spreading a smaller burden across a larger population. One caveat is that insurance can sometimes have the effect of "rewarding" risky behavior and "punishing" cautious behavior. Now, it's interesting that price differences can sometimes balance that by reversing the punishment/reward incentives, but only if prices are based on risk factors that the customer can actually control.

Re: Attacking discrimination with smarter machine learning

#193
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. It would be unlikely that millions of police would be spontaneously biased against African Americans, particularly when you factor in that those officers most likely to use excessive force against African Americans are themselves African American.

Nobody is talking about the bias being spontaneous. It is chronic and cultural. Do you have anything to back up your claim that African American officers are more likely to use force against African Americans than white officers?

> Nobody is talking about the bias being spontaneous. It is chronic and cultural.

It's very counterintuitive that police officers around the country would have a homogeneous culture that diverges so strongly from the cultures of the diverse communities from which they come and in which they live and in which they work.

It's necessarily "spontaneous" that police officers around the country coming from diverse backgrounds and living and working in diverse communities would spontaneously adopt a culture that biases them against one race in particular, especially when many of those officers are of that same race.

> Do you have anything to back up your claim that African American officers are more likely to use force against African Americans than white officers?

2 separate analyses come to mind, but there are others (I don't have the time to dig up at the moment). As far as I know, this isn't disputed among criminologists.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...

https://ric-zai-inc.com/Publications/cops-w0753-pub.pdf

Re: Attacking discrimination with smarter machine learning

#194
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racewar threads are off topic on the grounds of ultimate tediousness. All it leads to is flamewars, and no flamewar will ever resolve any of it. Meanwhile it poisons what we do care about: intellectual curiosity, and civil, substantive discussion. Gwern has a nice bit somewhere about how you can either devote your entire life to this stuff or give up. Most of us, the vast majority, have given up. The rest of you true…

Edit: ok, you probably have loads of comments to moderate and do this a lot, but this is a big shock to me - being accused of racewar is a bit of a "pull up". Ok, I can see how we got here - next time I will just say "citations" but now that we have broached the subject that I am being monitored and have breeched guidelines - can you give specifics so I can learn something. If I ever do learn? Please respond assuming…

Sorry I'm late to seeing this, but you seem to have mistakenly thought that my comment applied to one of yours? It didn't—I was replying to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13006905.

Re: Attacking discrimination with smarter machine learning

#195
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is talking about the bias being spontaneous. It is chronic and cultural. Do you have anything to back up your claim that African American officers are more likely to use force against African Americans than white officers?

> Nobody is talking about the bias being spontaneous. It is chronic and cultural. It's very counterintuitive that police officers around the country would have a homogeneous culture that diverges so strongly from the cultures of the diverse communities from which they come and in which they live and in which they work. It's necessarily "spontaneous" that police officers around the country coming from diverse backgrou…

There is nothing counterintuitive or spontaneous about police culture being homogeneous and very different from the surrounding communities. A simple google search will dismiss this notification instantly. https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&q=police%20culture...

Secondly you imply that police diversity somehow matches community diversity, when this is manifestly untrue, particularly in places where it is asserted that discrimination is active.

Take Ferguson Missouri, 67.4 percent of the city’s 21,000 residents are black, and 29.3 percent are white.

What is the makeup of the police department? 50 white officers, and 4 African American officers. http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/aug/17/...

The facts do not bear out your conjecture.

Re: Attacking discrimination with smarter machine learning

#196
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, I see what's the problem. By "higher score" I meant "higher score than the other group for given default risk ", not "higher score than the other group on average ". So, by my nomenclature, fig. 7.1 shows Blacks having "higher" (call it inflated ) FICO scores because for every N an N% risk Black scores higher than an N% risk Asian. At the same time fig. 7.2 shows Blacks having lower scores in general , which must…

Yes, blacks have lower average FICO and FICO is also biased in their favor. But this paper is NOT about correcting that bias. If it was then it would be a pretty short paper: Abstract: Go use isotonic regression in scikit-learn, once for each group. References: Some papers from the 1970's when isotonic regression was developed. http://scikit-learn.org/stable/modules/calibration.html ...but at the same time I think I'…

> This is also incorrect. The conclusions of the paper would remain valid if FICO were calibrated identically for all groups.

I guess you are right, this was just the first disparity I noticed in the orange/blue example and I got fixated on it. And yes, I haven't read the whole thing and my maths may be a bit rusty nowadays :)

Now I see that the problem they attempt to solve with "equal opportunity" is FICO's (in)ability to fish reliable borrowers out of the whole population. Currently, FICO identifies a small number of reliable Black borrowers whom they give high scores, plus there are many Blacks who would pay back diluted in a sea of unreliable borrowers with low scores. While in, say, Asians, the ratio of reliable borrowers who had been given high scores is higher (fig. 8).

I think the issue is a bit more nuanced than "algorithms rightly showing that fairness is opposite to profit".

In particular

> The best predictor is one which is explicitly discriminatory based on race: it takes both FICO score and race into account. [...] the worst predictor ["race blind"] throws away directly relevant racial information.

As I noted, this is a case of reverse bias directly compensating for FICO's bias. Max profit simply grants loans to all FICO score buckets whose default risk is sufficiently small to be worth it. If FICO vs risk was race-independent, "max profit" would use the same FICO threshold for every race and hence would be equivalent to "race blind".

Analogously, "max profit" could be equivalent to "equal opportunity" if FICO was better at finding Blacks who can pay and putting them in low risk buckets (high score) so that it becomes feasible and profitable for banks to grant them loans. I believe this is what authors meant by incentivising classifiers to improve accuracy and yes, I was wrong suggesting that they found a way to improve accuracy here by using the input classifier as a black box. Their ideas only compensate for the aforementioned race-biased score inflation, which isn't the entirety of the problem, and put some financial burden for some other mispredictions on banks/FICO to pressure them into getting their shit together.

I think trying to apply "equal opportunity" in the real world may indeed turn into handouts to people who can't pay, because it's possible that poor people are just hard to classify correctly and if certain ethnicities are poorer than others, they will appear to be given less opportunity even though actually it's simply poor people in general who are being given less opportunity. If FICO finds ways to classify poor Blacks better, it may turn out that applying the same solutions to other groups will improve their true positive rates too and hence "Black opportunity disadvantage" will stay.

But otoh, it also is possible that for some reasons Blacks are classified with less accuracy than Asians, which contributes to the lower overall true positive rate of the race. Authors appear to be assuming this possibility, though I don't think the distinction can be made from data presented in the paper alone.

TL;DR: I think you were oversimplifying things, and so was I :)

Re: Attacking discrimination with smarter machine learning

#197
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody is talking about the bias being spontaneous. It is chronic and cultural. It's very counterintuitive that police officers around the country would have a homogeneous culture that diverges so strongly from the cultures of the diverse communities from which they come and in which they live and in which they work. It's necessarily "spontaneous" that police officers around the country coming from diverse backgrou…

There is nothing counterintuitive or spontaneous about police culture being homogeneous and very different from the surrounding communities. A simple google search will dismiss this notification instantly. https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&q=police%20culture... Secondly you imply that police diversity somehow matches community diversity, when this is manifestly untrue, particularly in places where it is asser…

1. Your Google search doesn't "dismiss" anything.

2. I made no such implication; only that police come from and work in diverse communities. This means it should be surprising that police from all over and in all places would spontaneously converge on a single, hateful culture.

The facts may not bear out to my conjecture, but you've done nothing to demonstrate this.

Re: Attacking discrimination with smarter machine learning

#198
post #143

Blacks (or African Americans) are less intelligent than other ethnicities, in average. We have information that satisfies your two criteria of supporting class information. Yet people on HN (liberals/progressives) will get upset with this fact. Supporting classes: 1. Through employment, high school graduation, incarceration, and homicide rates. 2. Due to black cultural, male macho-independence, discrimination from no…

Racewar threads are off topic on the grounds of ultimate tediousness. All it leads to is flamewars, and no flamewar will ever resolve any of it. Meanwhile it poisons what we do care about: intellectual curiosity, and civil, substantive discussion. Gwern has a nice bit somewhere about how you can either devote your entire life to this stuff or give up. Most of us, the vast majority, have given up. The rest of you true…

[deleted]

Re: Attacking discrimination with smarter machine learning

#199
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing counterintuitive or spontaneous about police culture being homogeneous and very different from the surrounding communities. A simple google search will dismiss this notification instantly. https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&q=police%20culture... Secondly you imply that police diversity somehow matches community diversity, when this is manifestly untrue, particularly in places where it is asser…

1. Your Google search doesn't "dismiss" anything. 2. I made no such implication; only that police come from and work in diverse communities. This means it should be surprising that police from all over and in all places would spontaneously converge on a single, hateful culture. The facts may not bear out to my conjecture, but you've done nothing to demonstrate this.

My google search shows that there is an abundance of research into problems with the police culture. That is firmly established.

Your second claim is false. See my reference to the diversity of the ferguson police department. You are simply shown to be wrong on this count.

Also, nobody has said anything about convergence on a single hateful culture, and nowhere is there anything that requires a biased culture of policing to have occurred spontaneously. That is simply a straw man.

Re: Attacking discrimination with smarter machine learning

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the paper, or just the web page with the simulator? The loan simulator is a motivating example, not the entirety of the work. The work is a comparison between the basic approach of demographic parity and the authors contributions, which seeks to minimize the expense you seem to be talking about.

I read the paper a month ago, and I'm quite familiar with this field for my own reasons [1]. They attempt to minimize the expense I'm talking about. They don't reduce overfitting, improve accuracy, or even make any changes to the underlying predictive algorithm. The simulator is a great illustration of exactly what they did; the entirety of the work is generalizing that to arbitrary predictors (subject to a few condi…

I saw a talk by a fintech company CTO who lend to people in European countries without reliable credit scoring. They used lots of data points, effectively a black box system.

But sometimes they loan to people they wouldn't normally loan to, just because that loan adds the kind of data they would otherwise not get, and they take a risk on default in exchange for more data. I'm assuming smaller loan amounts.

So I guess that is one way for lending institutions to say they are issuing "bad loans for fairness" while still benefiting from it in terms of getting more training data and making the model more robust.

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