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Self-Driving Cars Must Meet 15 Benchmarks in U.S. Guidance

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Re: Self-Driving Cars Must Meet 15 Benchmarks in U.S. Guidance

#191

What is it about self-driving cars that has HN readers so incredibly excited? Sorry if it's a little off-topic. The reason I ask is there are plenty of other countries in the world where cars just aren't that important, let's take Netherlands for example. If you have automatic cars, society here is not just going to be that excited AFAIK. Public transport here is great and most people cycle everywhere, because it's f…

Good questions and it's great to hear this take on things.

Cars play a large role in America. I don't know all the history about how it came to be this way, but I can make some guesses...

* America is very big, and a lot of the settlements are spread out by a ways. Cars make those communities less insular because they provide a way to get from one town to another, where biking would take a very long time and significant effort.

* I forget when (was it the Great Depression?), but there was a big government initiative to build interstate highways connecting places together by roads. Again, these were distant places, but by being able to travel by car, they now feel quite a bit closer. Most everyone on HN was born after this gigantic network of roads was already in place, and car culture was firmly cemented in the US.

* Due to the distances involved, getting a drivers license around the age of 16 or 17 is a huge amount of freedom bestowed on children just as they really desire such freedom. I spent a lot of time in a car as a teenager not just because of where we were going, but also since it was a mostly-private space for me and my friends.

* For the above reasons and many many more, America in general has a culture that is very centered on cars, so given that a lot of HN is both American and interested in technology, it makes sense there'd be a lot of autonomous car talk here.

I wish I had grown up somewhere less car-centric. I moved to NYC specifically so that I wouldn't have to rely on cars, and I quite like the public transportation here. When I've gone back to the rural New Hampshire town I grew up in, public transportation doesn't exist and getting anywhere except my immediate neighbor's houses takes a long time via bike, and I remember why I grew up with cars.

Edit to add: America is also heavily invested in cars and the culture that follows. The train system throughout the country has been in a terrible state for a looooooong time, and there's not much hope of it ever getting better due to the fact that we're so invested in cars. Some cities and towns have better public transportation support, but most don't. Some cities and towns have better support for bicycles and pedestrians, but most don't. There are occasional pushes to change things, but there's always heavy resistance due to just how deep into cars we are, and just how many people and local governments would truly need to get on the same page to make meaningful change.

Re: Self-Driving Cars Must Meet 15 Benchmarks in U.S. Guidance

#192

From the regulations: "Fall back strategies should take into account that—despite laws and regulations to the contrary—human drivers may be inattentive, under the influence of alcohol or other substances, drowsy, or physically impaired in some other manner." NHTSA, which, after all, studies crashes, is being very realistic. Here's the "we're looking at you, Tesla" moment: "Guidance for Lower Levels of Automated Vehic…

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Re: Self-Driving Cars Must Meet 15 Benchmarks in U.S. Guidance

#193
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm, apart from the punitive damages this is pretty much any product liability suit. If you make life-critical systems and your product fails you are getting sued out the wazoo - which is why many products will specifically state that they are not to be used in life-critical systems. Most mechanical equipment is not reviewed on a case-by-case basis by a regulatory industry; however aircraft incidents are. Aircraft pr…

How is this a life-critical system?

If the car crashes you die.

> A life-critical system or safety-critical system is a system whose failure or malfunction may result in one (or more) of the following outcomes:

> death or serious injury to people,

> loss or severe damage to equipment/property

> environmental harm

Re: Self-Driving Cars Must Meet 15 Benchmarks in U.S. Guidance

#194

What is it about self-driving cars that has HN readers so incredibly excited? Sorry if it's a little off-topic. The reason I ask is there are plenty of other countries in the world where cars just aren't that important, let's take Netherlands for example. If you have automatic cars, society here is not just going to be that excited AFAIK. Public transport here is great and most people cycle everywhere, because it's f…

In my opinion, you mentioned the core reason why you find the excitement baffling, i.e. that you don't drive often but you find it exciting when you do. Now imagine the scenario for most of the US, a public-transport-hostile country for the most part, where millions upon millions of people burn their precious lives waiting in traffic and sucking in traffic fumes. In my mind, this is one of the most appalling wastes o…

Thanks for the response and totally agree with the sitting in traffic, wasted time thing ,but with all due respect it still seems inefficient, wouldn't public transport and telecommuting be better options in a connected world?

How will there still be no traffic jams, or the car will be like an office? In that case why not just work from home and come to work for meetings here and there? Might flexible / less work hours help?

I mean people will still be driving around in vehicle which often makes people motion sick if not paying attention to surroundings , cars requires a lot of energy, take up space etc.

I used to travel to work via train, it was 1.5 hours one way, it was highly productive time for me, but for some reason trains don't seem to make people as motion sick?

I guess one other thing to note is that in Australia, where I'm from originally, some see people think of others using public transport or biking as kind of peasants or feel it's inferior, that might be part of it too ? They're also the kind of people who often like to drive fast and own expensive cars as a status thing, so I'm still note sure it's going to take?

Re: Self-Driving Cars Must Meet 15 Benchmarks in U.S. Guidance

#195

From the regulations: "Fall back strategies should take into account that—despite laws and regulations to the contrary—human drivers may be inattentive, under the influence of alcohol or other substances, drowsy, or physically impaired in some other manner." NHTSA, which, after all, studies crashes, is being very realistic. Here's the "we're looking at you, Tesla" moment: "Guidance for Lower Levels of Automated Vehic…

I don't understand this anti-autonomy cheerleading. It's like people on HN live in a parallel universe where there have been a bunch of deaths from cars running Autopilot, whereas in the world I live in, it seems to be somewhat safer than a human alone. Like, people can mess up either way, but they seem to be less likely to do so when the car is also looking out for them. What am I missing?

Re: Self-Driving Cars Must Meet 15 Benchmarks in U.S. Guidance

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the Tesla comment, what more could you expect from them right now? If you have auto pilot on your hands have to be on the wheel or it vibrates and then it starts slowing down e eventually since it knows it's not safe. People can work around any system for this, but stuff like this makes it have to do it consciously. Seems pretty reasonable on Tesla's part.

You could expect them to not call it autopilot, and instead call it lane keeping, like it really is. The name does a really good job at setting a terrible expectation, almost to the point of undoing any attention grabbing mechanism to keep users engaged.

The NHTSA is hinting in that direction, indicating that manufacturers must clearly distinguish between driver assistance systems (levels 1 and 2) and real self driving (levels 3 - 5). There will probably be some standard on this. There has to be; consider what happens when car rental fleets start having some of these features.

There was an accident with a Volvo where someone was showing off the pedestrian safety system, and hit a pedestrian. It turned out they hadn't purchased the pedestrian safety system.[1] Something is needed to prevent problems like that.

Then there's mode switching trouble. Classic problem with aircraft control systems. Tesla disengages the "autopilot" if the driver touches the brake. The trouble is that this also disables automatic braking, as the driver is assumed to now be in control. So tapping the brake without applying it fully in a hazardous situation causes a crash.

All these driver behavior problems with shared control authority are hard. Maybe harder than going for level 3 and letting the automation do it.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_47utWAoupo

Re: Self-Driving Cars Must Meet 15 Benchmarks in U.S. Guidance

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, you mentioned the core reason why you find the excitement baffling, i.e. that you don't drive often but you find it exciting when you do. Now imagine the scenario for most of the US, a public-transport-hostile country for the most part, where millions upon millions of people burn their precious lives waiting in traffic and sucking in traffic fumes. In my mind, this is one of the most appalling wastes o…

Thanks for the response and totally agree with the sitting in traffic, wasted time thing ,but with all due respect it still seems inefficient, wouldn't public transport and telecommuting be better options in a connected world? How will there still be no traffic jams, or the car will be like an office? In that case why not just work from home and come to work for meetings here and there? Might flexible / less work hou…

I fully agree: most rational nations have invested in public transportation to solve this problem. The US has a myriad of problems that has made public transportation an afterthought and not viable for most of the country.

I also agree that telecommuting or flexible hours would work well. But again, for most office workers in the country and world, there is significant inflexibility: they must arrive at their appointed time, leave at their appointed time, and take breaks at appointed times. My statement was intended to be broad and to apply to all workers instead of just for the high-tech industry.

So I see self-driving cars as a backdoor solution to the above problems: replace regular cars with self-driving cars, maybe with car-sharing, and now a country that has so much invested in the car suddenly is able to significantly reduce the latter's influence on society without realizing it. Well, one can but hope anyways.

Re: Self-Driving Cars Must Meet 15 Benchmarks in U.S. Guidance

#198
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking it meant the car would not drive itself away and hide after a collision :-)

That could actually be an interesting problem. It might sound like "in the event of a impact >Xg, stop, shut down, and wait for police/NTSB/etc to come investigate". But if, say, you hit a deer on a wilderness road in the winter, that behavior could lead to the passengers all dying of exposure. Do self-driving cars have a button labeled "fuck your rules and DRIVE"?

Likewise, in most discussions of self-driving cars, it is noted that they probably won't work well in the snow. Someone (presumably not from a snowy area) will then say that the car will pull over and wait, as you shouldn't be driving in a snowstorm anyway. They never say what's supposed to happen next, with the highways full of people whose cars have stranded them. Are they all supposed to call for cabs? But wait, cabs have been replaced by self-driving cars...

Re: Self-Driving Cars Must Meet 15 Benchmarks in U.S. Guidance

#199

From the regulations: "Fall back strategies should take into account that—despite laws and regulations to the contrary—human drivers may be inattentive, under the influence of alcohol or other substances, drowsy, or physically impaired in some other manner." NHTSA, which, after all, studies crashes, is being very realistic. Here's the "we're looking at you, Tesla" moment: "Guidance for Lower Levels of Automated Vehic…

"Automatic driving will not be reached incrementally."

Not true.. There are other ways of doing this incrementally. For example, slow speeds, closed roads (no pedestrians or other cars), only in good weather, ideal conditions, etc.

Re: Self-Driving Cars Must Meet 15 Benchmarks in U.S. Guidance

#200
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking it meant the car would not drive itself away and hide after a collision :-)

That could actually be an interesting problem. It might sound like "in the event of a impact >Xg, stop, shut down, and wait for police/NTSB/etc to come investigate". But if, say, you hit a deer on a wilderness road in the winter, that behavior could lead to the passengers all dying of exposure. Do self-driving cars have a button labeled "fuck your rules and DRIVE"?

Probably any self-driving vehicle should have a button you can push that amounts to consenting to "The car will now record that you initiated a manual override. You are now in full control. Anything you do is your responsibility." Insurers will throw a fit if you push this button but it's better than being stuck in a bad situation because your car can't figure out a way out of it.
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