Live data from Hacker News

Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

techcrunch.com

191–200 of 241 posts

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snowden's discharge report makes no mention of "shin splints". It unambiguously mentions "stress fracture", which is unambiguously a form of a "broken bone" by colloquial definition (being as there is no medical definition). The whole point is that there's no way one can reasonably claim Snowden was exaggerating or misstating the reason for his discharge. The Committee's assertions on this point were just a smear, an…

This is like saying someone wasn't washed out because of a persistent sore throat but was in fact diagnosed with chronic pharyngitis. I mean, OK. Sure. Unfortunately, your argument is made more difficult by the original narrative of Snowden's story, which claims he "broke both legs in a training accident". Were tibial stress fractures what anyone conjured up from that description? Both sides --- Gellman and the House…

> This is like saying someone wasn't washed out because of a persistent sore throat but was in fact diagnosed with chronic pharyngitis. I mean, OK. Sure.

Well, granting the analogy for the sake of argument, the problem here is the House report says that Snowden lied by saying he was diagnosed with chronic pharyngitis when he really had a sore throat.

IOW, he is being called a liar for saying something that is literally and exactly factually true about his discharge, and which is exactly supported by the discharge papers.

(The analogy isn't precise, because at best the description used in the House report is less specific, and implies a much less serious injury in the common mind even if it can include the actual injury that occurred. So, the House report is even more dishonest than the analogy in the above paragraph would suggest.)

> Personally, I also think both Gellman and the House report are litigating the dumbest, least important aspect of the Snowden events. I don't really care what kind of person Snowden is

Sure, you don't, but you aren't representative of the masses of the public, and what the House report is trying to do (and do so at least as dishonestly as it is trying to paint Snowden as doing) -- and Gellman is trying to negate (and perhaps even turn back on the House report itself) -- is poisoning the well. They know that the substance of the matter regarding Snowden's action is difficult and complex, and they want to give the public a clear and easy to grasp reason to tune the whole thing out because "Snowden is dishonest".

Politically, its in a way the most important thing even if it is substantively least important, because its exactly the kind of thing which will -- and this is the whole reason that any time and ink has been spent on it -- prevent the substantive parts from getting attention.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snowden's discharge report makes no mention of "shin splints". It unambiguously mentions "stress fracture", which is unambiguously a form of a "broken bone" by colloquial definition (being as there is no medical definition). The whole point is that there's no way one can reasonably claim Snowden was exaggerating or misstating the reason for his discharge. The Committee's assertions on this point were just a smear, an…

This is like saying someone wasn't washed out because of a persistent sore throat but was in fact diagnosed with chronic pharyngitis. I mean, OK. Sure. Unfortunately, your argument is made more difficult by the original narrative of Snowden's story, which claims he "broke both legs in a training accident". Were tibial stress fractures what anyone conjured up from that description? Both sides --- Gellman and the House…

This is like saying someone wasn't washed out because of a persistent sore throat but was in fact diagnosed with chronic pharyngitis.

No, it's not. It's quite a silly comparison, actually.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like saying someone wasn't washed out because of a persistent sore throat but was in fact diagnosed with chronic pharyngitis. I mean, OK. Sure. Unfortunately, your argument is made more difficult by the original narrative of Snowden's story, which claims he "broke both legs in a training accident". Were tibial stress fractures what anyone conjured up from that description? Both sides --- Gellman and the House…

> This is like saying someone wasn't washed out because of a persistent sore throat but was in fact diagnosed with chronic pharyngitis. I mean, OK. Sure. Well, granting the analogy for the sake of argument, the problem here is the House report says that Snowden lied by saying he was diagnosed with chronic pharyngitis when he really had a sore throat. IOW, he is being called a liar for saying something that is literal…

I don't know that we really disagree about anything here. About the worst thing I have to say about Gellman here --- besides that I think it was strategically a bad idea to pick this factual hill to fight on --- is that he's removing the context behind the "broken leg" claim.

I know my original post reads like a list of complaints I have about Gellman's post, but it isn't: it's a list of all the claims Gellman makes, and a short take on each of them.

So, I think it's worth knowing that when Gellman says the House Report is lying because Snowden has a diagnosis of "bilateral tibial stress fractures", he's describing a common result of seeking medical attention for shin splints. That's all.

It's worth mentioning here that the Snowden movie --- I haven't seen it, but that's why all this stuff is coming up now --- appears to be false on this point in no uncertain terms. But then, the broader narrative point the movie is trying to make --- that Snowden was prevented from joining the Special Forces for medical reasons --- might not be. But then a narrower issue is whether he washed out of X-ray Special Forces Training (the "street directly to special forces training" program), or out of the military in general --- that is: did he wash out because he was only willing to serve if he could go straight to Special Forces, when he could have managed his repetitive stress injury, stayed engaged with the Army, and taken the conventional path into Special Forces? And on and on. The whole thing is a mess.

We are rapidly approaching a point where I am going to start reading reports on parachutists managing tibial stress fractures and I'd be happier if we didn't get all the way to that point.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. "Shin splints" is a symptom, not a diagnosis. Tibial stress fractures are a cause of shin splints. A lot of people who have "shin splints" have, in fact, tibial stress fractures. The first line treatment for bilateral tibial stress fractures is "stop working out for 4-12 weeks". They are apparently common in basic training (and diagnosis is apparently getting better, so that a lot of people that would normally ha…

> "Shin splints" is a symptom, not a diagnosis. "Shin splints" is a diagnosis, in that its the popular name for medial tibial stress syndrome.

Whatever it is, it's not what Snowden was diagnosed with, according to his discharge papers.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Shin splints" is a symptom, not a diagnosis. "Shin splints" is a diagnosis, in that its the popular name for medial tibial stress syndrome.

Whatever it is, it's not what Snowden was diagnosed with, according to his discharge papers.

The point is that nobody is diagnosed with "shin splints", just like they aren't diagnosed with "runny nose and sore throat".

If the only point you're making is that the House Report is dishonest in not acknowledging that nobody is diagnosed with literally the term "shin splints", OK, sure, I agree.

But it's a little crazy to me that we're discussing this to this extent, since it's the least important claim in both Gellman and the House's documents.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever it is, it's not what Snowden was diagnosed with, according to his discharge papers.

The point is that nobody is diagnosed with "shin splints", just like they aren't diagnosed with "runny nose and sore throat". If the only point you're making is that the House Report is dishonest in not acknowledging that nobody is diagnosed with literally the term "shin splints", OK, sure, I agree. But it's a little crazy to me that we're discussing this to this extent, since it's the least important claim in both G…

No, the point is that the whole discussion of "shin splints" is nothing more than a (rather crude) attempt at misdirection.

And attempted comparisons to a "runny nose", even more so.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever it is, it's not what Snowden was diagnosed with, according to his discharge papers.

The point is that nobody is diagnosed with "shin splints", just like they aren't diagnosed with "runny nose and sore throat". If the only point you're making is that the House Report is dishonest in not acknowledging that nobody is diagnosed with literally the term "shin splints", OK, sure, I agree. But it's a little crazy to me that we're discussing this to this extent, since it's the least important claim in both G…

> The point is that nobody is diagnosed with "shin splints",

They are, or rather, they are diagnosed with medial tibial stress syndrome, which is a distinct and generally less serious thing from a tibial stress fractures (though, AFAICT, may include tibial stress fractures.)

But the relationship between the "shin splits" and medial tibial stress syndrome is clear -- one is the common name and one the formal medical term.

And that's not, in fact, what Snowden was diagnosed with.

And what Snowden was actually diagnosed with is, in fact, broken bones in both legs, so for the House report to paint him as a liar in saying that he was discharged with broken legs because he was -- by the reports description -- discharged with mere shin splints is a lie of such breathtaking brazenness, on such a trivial matter, so far from the substantive meat of the issue, that it demonstrates that the report was written with the intent to smear Snowden everywhere possible without any regard for the actual facts. And that's what makes it important, rather than the importance of the particular claim to the substantive matter.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Shin splints" is a symptom, not a diagnosis. "Shin splints" is a diagnosis, in that its the popular name for medial tibial stress syndrome.

Whatever it is, it's not what Snowden was diagnosed with, according to his discharge papers.

Well, yeah, and that's rather the point.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that nobody is diagnosed with "shin splints", just like they aren't diagnosed with "runny nose and sore throat". If the only point you're making is that the House Report is dishonest in not acknowledging that nobody is diagnosed with literally the term "shin splints", OK, sure, I agree. But it's a little crazy to me that we're discussing this to this extent, since it's the least important claim in both G…

> The point is that nobody is diagnosed with "shin splints", They are, or rather, they are diagnosed with medial tibial stress syndrome, which is a distinct and generally less serious thing from a tibial stress fractures (though, AFAICT, may include tibial stress fractures.) But the relationship between the "shin splits" and medial tibial stress syndrome is clear -- one is the common name and one the formal medical t…

I don't know that this is worth litigating further. I think, for instance, it's much simpler to establish that the House Report was brazenly dishonest about Snowden's educational record. It's not like the trustworthiness of the spin in the House Report is in dispute: it's clearly not trustworthy.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The House report claims Snowden lied saying he left military training due to broken legs, and instead washed out due to "shin splints". Gellman objects, saying he has a documented diagnosis for Snowden saying he was discharged with "bilaterial tibial stress fractures". But tibial stress fractures are a form --- a common form --- of shin splint. A stress fracture is a broken bone. Tibial stress fractures are (among…

I addressed this downthread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12535114 I think both sides are spinning. It's clear to me how the House Report lawyers Snowden's training history, but where you see Gellman rebutting a House Report claim that no bone fractures were involved in Snowden's separation from the army, I see Gellman failing to acknowledge that a tibial stress fractures are a common medical diagnosis for "s…

> I see Gellman failing to acknowledge that a tibial stress fractures are a common medical diagnosis for "shin splints".

Even if "shin splints" weren't the common name for a different and lesser less severe diagnosis, those wouldn't be equivalent.

The House report would still be dishonest in calling Snowden a liar for a statement that is completely accurate. And Gellman would still be completely dishonest (even with the failure to acknowledge that you suggest) in painting the House report as dishonest for dishonestly calling Snowden a liar for a statement that is completely accurate.

This isn't "both sides spinning". It is one side outright lying and using misdirection to get away with that, and one side pointing this out without any misdirection.

The acknowledgement (even if it were accurate) that you fault Gellman for giving is irrelevant to the point in dispute, which isn't "Snowden actually had something that can be described with the term 'shin splints'", but "Snowden was dishonest in saying that he had broken legs". His discharge report indicates that he had broken bones in both legs. Snowden was not dishonest. At best, if one accepts your description, the House report relied on people's ignorance to sell a different, nonconflicting-but-also-not-incorrect description of the events as a conflicting one so that it could call Snowden a liar; at worst it actually invented a false narrative to call Snowden a liar, but whether it was a false narrative or simply relied on a false presentation of conflict, the House report relied on deliberate falsehood to call Snowden a liar.

> I think it's clearer in light of Snowden's original claim to the Guardian that he left training after "breaking both legs in a training accident" (it is possible, but unlikely, that Snowden acquired stress fractions as a result of a single discrete training event --- but Snowden was getting a lot of mileage out of the ambiguity).

Its not all that unlikely that the stress fractures, if not being acquired, became acute enough to cause him to leave training as a result of a single discrete training event, and its even less unlikely that he became unable to train and sought or was referred to medical attention as a result of pain and lack of ability to take weight occurring in the immediate context of a discrete training event and in the course of being diagnosed, was not disabused of the notion that the training event in which the injury was recognized was not necessarily the sole or major cause. So, its not improbable that Snowden's description to the Guardian was accurate, and even more likely that it accurately reflected the facts as he knew them.

Post reply on HN