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To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

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Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most people are not idiots. If they disagree with you, it's probably not because they are being irrational, but because they're starting from a different premise, making different assumptions, or assigning different values to different aspects of the problem. This is probably one of the most insightful things you can ever read. Internalise this and your whole way of approaching others will be changed. This is valid…

I too agree wholeheartedly. It took me many years (35yo now) to learn this, the very hard way, on internet and specially in life. A MD in Philosophy helped a lot, or it's been actually essential for my life path. Interesting, given that I'm a 'creationist idiot' (I won't go into details), I never actually debate this with anyone that doesn't have the theological (and hermeneutical skills) necessary to understand WHY…

> "ID (which is often breathlessly conflated with creationism),"

I think you do a misfavor by using the phrase "breathlessly conflated" in a comment which supports being aware that others may be "starting from a different premise", etc.

It doesn't help that the authors of a "Of Pandas and People", an ID textbook, effectively did a search and replace in early drafts of "creationism" with "intelligent design", and "intelligent creator" to "intelligent agency", after Edwards v. Aguillard settled that teaching creationism in public schools was not constitutional. One of the famous examples is how "creationalist" became "cdesign proponentsists". https://ncse.com/creationism/legal/cdesign-proponentsists .

Quoting the judge in Kitzmiller v. Dover:

> By comparing the pre and post Edwards drafts of Pandas, three astonishing points emerge: (1) the definition for creation science in early drafts is identical to the definition of ID; (2) cognates of the word creation (creationism and creationist), which appeared approximately 150 times, were deliberately and systematically replaced with the phrase ID; and (3) the changes occurred shortly after the Supreme Court held that creation science is religious and cannot be taught in public school science classes in Edwards. This word substitution is telling, significant, and reveals that a purposeful change of words was effected without any corresponding change in content ....

While certainly ID is different from creationism (it can allow extraterrestrials as the intelligent designer, and not just a deity), it "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents." (Quoting Dover.)

Those starting from a different premise from you, that is, that ID is a smokescreen for creationism which uses the language of science to get around constitutional restrictions of what can be taught in schools, would not consider this as a real distinction but rather a deliberately introduced confusion. For them, it would not be a breathless conflation, but an indicator that the social and religious basis of ID as a creationist movement is more relevant than the details of its doctrine, which they also believe to be a incorrect interpretation of the evidence.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#192
post #16

Learning how to do this is an essential skill. Most people are not idiots. If they disagree with you, it's probably not because they are being irrational, but because they're starting from a different premise, making different assumptions, or assigning different values to different aspects of the problem. Only when you understand their argument well enough to articulate it in your own words can you effectively presen…

I couldn't agree more. How tiresome it is to watch two people completely talk past each other.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#193

Pascal was using this method: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method Really Bad article by the way.

I was just about to point this same thing out. Asking good questions works so much better than trying to tell them how they are wrong, so after validating them start questioning their logic (or lack of logic). I actually learned about this in therapy to assist in communicating better with my wife (who has a personality disorder) and then later realized it's the Socratic method. Validating the things you agree with is…

PG had an essay about non intuitive things like skiing. IMO the socratic method is the best non intuitive solution for situations when you disagree someone.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most people are not idiots. If they disagree with you, it's probably not because they are being irrational, but because they're starting from a different premise, making different assumptions, or assigning different values to different aspects of the problem. This is probably one of the most insightful things you can ever read. Internalise this and your whole way of approaching others will be changed. This is valid…

I too agree wholeheartedly. It took me many years (35yo now) to learn this, the very hard way, on internet and specially in life. A MD in Philosophy helped a lot, or it's been actually essential for my life path. Interesting, given that I'm a 'creationist idiot' (I won't go into details), I never actually debate this with anyone that doesn't have the theological (and hermeneutical skills) necessary to understand WHY…

I'm curious what your position is. Young-Earth creationism plus evolution? Or something different? I can't quite discern it from your post.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#195
post #51
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've learned plenty (and changed my mind many times) from having people simply tell me that I'm wrong.

I have found programmers to be far more receptive to blunt criticism than my other non-programmer friends. I think it's just a frame of mind to accept that will be wrong a lot and that is fine. It would take a whole lot of cognitive dissonance to get through a decent sized software project and imagine it is all flawless or couldn't be even slightly better in some way.

Yes, but even then, they are often even more receptive to criticism that goes beyond calling them and their work stupid.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only when you understand their argument... I couldn't agree more. As a lifelong believer in science, raised in the Midwest among creationists, I have come into many conversations with intelligent people who somehow place faith in front of evidence. It's demoralizing to realize the frequency that this phenomenon occurs. I've recently scheduled a trip to the Creation Museum to observe the message at its core (half fo…

Sorry, most people are indeed not idiots, but that doesn't apply to creationists. It's one thing to go to a church (there even might be purely social reasons), and it's another thing to discard overwhelming scientific evidence and believe something based on the principle of not needing any evidence at all. I become especially sad when I think of the confused minds of the poor children of these people. On the topic, I…

If you want to understand the arguments of religious people you should probably listen to them and not a polemicist against them, but it's a mistake to equate "religious people" (or even Christians) with "creationists" in the first place.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#197
This is a classic technique for influencing people. The rule of thumb is nobody likes to be criticized in any situation whatsoever. The worst thing you can do is to tell them they are wrong. One way to get a difficult message conveyed is to get the other person say "yes" a few times before being told things as they are.

Anyone interested in learning more I would recommend reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influen...

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only when you understand their argument... I couldn't agree more. As a lifelong believer in science, raised in the Midwest among creationists, I have come into many conversations with intelligent people who somehow place faith in front of evidence. It's demoralizing to realize the frequency that this phenomenon occurs. I've recently scheduled a trip to the Creation Museum to observe the message at its core (half fo…

Your worldview informed by contemporary scientific theories is faith-based. What we believe in today will eventually be proven fundamentally flawed and we'll look no better than the average church goer.

"Modern science is based on the principle: ‘Give us one free miracle, and we’ll explain the rest.’ The one free miracle is the appearance of all the mass and energy in the universe and all the laws that govern it in a single instant from nothing"

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#199
This is very shallow. Negotiation theory is not helpful when you're plainly or partially wrong, or just in a very weak position to defend.

Here's a classic negotiation example that I just can't crack:

Her: I've told you, please don't leave your socks on the floor.

Him: (mirroring) Leave my socks on the floor?

Her: Yes. Please throw them in the laundry bin right after you take them off.

Him: (open-ended question) How am I supposed to do this if I'm in a hurry?

Her: After you take off your socks, pick them up. Then throw them into the bin. Two seconds and you're are done.

Him: (Pascal's empathy) Yes, you're right. Leaving socks on the floor is just annoying. But understand that when I get home sometimes I'm in a hurry or I'm tired and I don't feel like picking up the socks.

Her: Please just do it. It annoys the hell out of me.

There's just no good way to negotiate your way out of this. Typically negotiation courses and books always focus on how the reader will bargain to win, not to minimize losses or just accept to lose but compromise on an ongoing basis (give-and-take).

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#200
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too agree wholeheartedly. It took me many years (35yo now) to learn this, the very hard way, on internet and specially in life. A MD in Philosophy helped a lot, or it's been actually essential for my life path. Interesting, given that I'm a 'creationist idiot' (I won't go into details), I never actually debate this with anyone that doesn't have the theological (and hermeneutical skills) necessary to understand WHY…

> "ID (which is often breathlessly conflated with creationism)," I think you do a misfavor by using the phrase "breathlessly conflated" in a comment which supports being aware that others may be "starting from a different premise", etc. It doesn't help that the authors of a "Of Pandas and People", an ID textbook, effectively did a search and replace in early drafts of "creationism" with "intelligent design", and "int…

There are no constitutional restrictions on what can be taught in schools.
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