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The Math Myth

econlog.econlib.org

191–200 of 328 posts

Re: The Math Myth

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is more to math than just calculations, algebra, geometry, etc. Logic, and reasoning through choices & the effects of those choices are vital math skills as well, and for many people in math, they don't manifest until one takes a few rigorous proof-based classes, where one often sees new approaches to arriving at concepts they know, and how to properly get to a conclusion from a particular point. I wish these s…

For software engineers specifically -- every time you are coding formalized programmatic logic, you are using math. If you took a logics and proofs course, it would help you formalize logic better. Every time you write a "for" loop you are essentially using summations. There is a book called Concrete Mathematics and one of the primary authors is Donald Knuth, basically it's "Programmers math" and in my opinion, would…

You seem to describe a very different world of programming than the one I live in.

I have no dislike for logic, formal proofs, category theory and such: I can live in that world just fine. However, almost none of the problems I've ever had to dealt with in my 15 years programming made me wish for large amounts of that: I've used bits here and there, but going all in never made any sense.

The hard part of most tasks I had to do in professional programming is to gather enough information to even begin to write one of those formal specifications: Knowing what real business needs are, understanding how distributed systems fail, working around bugs, reading library code quickly and effectively, learning how to factor code in a way that would evolve well with changes in what the application needs to do... that's where the value is. 99% of that is talking to people and making educated guesses about the future: The implementation itself is trivial. With that, was able to get solid code working in languages that were ill equipped to handle any of the fun pieces of math that you'd need to write mathematically-minded programs.

If anything, the experience I've had working with people that were heavy on the math has been dismal. I worked with a rather well known dev who has published books, gives a lot of talks in FP circles, and is a lead dev in a huge mathematically driven library. We worked on on a rather novel distributed systems. He hid in a corner with a copy of Mathematica for a couple of months, and came back with a paper that proved a well performing solution to one of the things we had to do with our distributed system: Great!... Except, not so, because his proof only worked in a mythological environment where there is no latency between nodes. Under real conditions, the algorithm's properties led to unacceptable results, and he just hid behind the proof.

I don't have papers and patents behind me. He knows a lot more category theory than I do. But It took me a day to implement a completely unproven algorithm that had far better performance properties in a real case. This is not due to any special brilliance of mine, but because I sat down and approached the system like a scientist or an engineer would, instead of like a mathematician.

In my opinion, teaching the scientific method and the basics of engineering in other fields will serve your average programmer far better than being better at math ever will.

Re: The Math Myth

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said you shouldn't understand what it does. It's just that I think it's useless to drill on arithmetic. I know very well what a computer is doing when I tell it to divide 188416 by 20148. That doesn't mean it's useful for me to be able to mentally do it. Mental arithmetic is incredibly overvalued and useless as a skill, especially since it's largely uncorrelated with actual depth of mathematical understanding…

I believe the OP's exercise was to do the division manually not mentally. Basic mental arithmetic is probably the most used in day-to-day life. It feels weird having to whip out a calculator/phone every time you need to make a quick estimate.

> I believe the OP's exercise was to do the division manually not mentally.

That's equally useless.

Why would I try to figure out the result manually when I have a computer in my pocket at all times? If anything, doing things manually when we have computers seems weirder.

Re: The Math Myth

#193

This largely matches my experience - as a software engineer, I spend probably In a market economy, basically all returns come from marginal gains. The vast majority of your lifetime income will come from a dozen or fewer opportunities that you happen to be in a position to take advantage of, whether it's a new job offer or a high-profile project you volunteer for or a startup that takes off. You will qualify for thos…

I wrote CAD software for a while and became an expert in Trig ... I have to say that the point where a branch of mathematics becomes intuitive is a real epiphany. I also used mathe pretty heavily working on QAM modulator designs for the cable television industry. And yet in almost thirty-five years of engineering I really only remember using Calculus once (to adjust some tables we used to calculate Bessel filter component values).

Re: The Math Myth

#194
post #129

This largely matches my experience - as a software engineer, I spend probably In a market economy, basically all returns come from marginal gains. The vast majority of your lifetime income will come from a dozen or fewer opportunities that you happen to be in a position to take advantage of, whether it's a new job offer or a high-profile project you volunteer for or a startup that takes off. You will qualify for thos…

Wah. >The vast majority of your lifetime income will come from a dozen or fewer opportunities that you happen to be in a position to take advantage of, whether it's a new job offer or a high-profile project you volunteer for or a startup that takes off Is this really true? I'm still way too early in my career to know. But I'd have thought if you stick with the more "traditional" route, your income would be fairly con…

No. It's just the poster's belief masquerading as fact (with helpful quantification: 'vast majority', 'dozen or fewer').

Re: The Math Myth

#195
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its just algebra. As noted elsewhere in this thread, 10X = 9.999... so 10X - X = 9.999... - 0.999... = 9 = 9X. So X=1.

This proof is more subtle than it appears. Here's a bogus rewrite, for instance: Let 10X = 9.9. Then 10X - X = 9.9 - 0.9 = 9 = 9X. Hence X = 1, but X is actually 0.99 in this case (not 0.9). You need 0.99 = 0.9 for this to work with the exact same structure as your version. Your proof only works because appending a 9 to an infinite expansion of 9s does not actually add a 9. But at this point you're forced to establis…

What? Why -0.9?

Re: The Math Myth

#196
The article only addressed the "operational" aspect of math, there is also a "communicational" aspect of math that enables people to express, share and understand complex problems and solutions.

Mathematical communication skills will become more important in the information age with huge amount of quantitative data.

Re: The Math Myth

#197
post #170
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wah. >The vast majority of your lifetime income will come from a dozen or fewer opportunities that you happen to be in a position to take advantage of, whether it's a new job offer or a high-profile project you volunteer for or a startup that takes off Is this really true? I'm still way too early in my career to know. But I'd have thought if you stick with the more "traditional" route, your income would be fairly con…

Even if you stick with the traditional route, having a tiny initial advantage for your first job will have compounding results over your lifetime. This is significant enough that people who graduate college during a recession on average have a 9% lower salary during the first 10 years of working [0]. Many people can tell you about their "big break". That one success that seemed to cascade into other successes. Whethe…

The big break has also an important psychological effect that acts basically like compound interest.

Re: The Math Myth

#198

This largely matches my experience - as a software engineer, I spend probably In a market economy, basically all returns come from marginal gains. The vast majority of your lifetime income will come from a dozen or fewer opportunities that you happen to be in a position to take advantage of, whether it's a new job offer or a high-profile project you volunteer for or a startup that takes off. You will qualify for thos…

Another thing to consider is how much you general abstract thinking and intelligence is expanded by learning math - Qualities that are valued.

Re: The Math Myth

#199
post #129

This largely matches my experience - as a software engineer, I spend probably In a market economy, basically all returns come from marginal gains. The vast majority of your lifetime income will come from a dozen or fewer opportunities that you happen to be in a position to take advantage of, whether it's a new job offer or a high-profile project you volunteer for or a startup that takes off. You will qualify for thos…

Wah. >The vast majority of your lifetime income will come from a dozen or fewer opportunities that you happen to be in a position to take advantage of, whether it's a new job offer or a high-profile project you volunteer for or a startup that takes off Is this really true? I'm still way too early in my career to know. But I'd have thought if you stick with the more "traditional" route, your income would be fairly con…

The opportunities are transition points, not isolated events. Like moving from 100k/yr salary to 400k or whatever. OP is saying (in my understanding) that the bulk of your outcome will be determined by the magnitude of those transitions.

Re: The Math Myth

#200

This largely matches my experience - as a software engineer, I spend probably In a market economy, basically all returns come from marginal gains. The vast majority of your lifetime income will come from a dozen or fewer opportunities that you happen to be in a position to take advantage of, whether it's a new job offer or a high-profile project you volunteer for or a startup that takes off. You will qualify for thos…

Another thing to consider is how much you general abstract thinking and intelligence is expanded by learning math - Qualities that are valued.

The author addresses exactly this point. (Whether or not you agree with the author is a separate issue, but your comment seems to indicate you didn't reach that part of the post.)
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