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David Cameron announces resignation

theguardian.com

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Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#191

Post by fredley »

sievebrain wrote: post #190
fredley wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In both the US general election and this referendum, the primary forces at play are emotive campaigning backed by false or at the very least misleading information (in our case: portrayal of immigrants, the '£350m a week' figure that has already had some very serious backpeddling, etc. etc.). We have an electorate that is woefully misinformed for a whole host of reasons. How you address this is beyond me.

Simply describing the arguments you disagree with as false and people who listen as idiots is why Remain has lost the referendum. Are you going to learn from that and change your ways? There was lots of flatly false and misleading crap coming from the Remain camp as well. Just look at how Cameron see-sawed on the consequences of an exit. Before his negotiation it was "things will be OK even if we leave, the economy i…

I'm not saying Remain didn't peddle crap (or even implied that only Leave was doing so). The two issues I've highlighted are demonstrably false. The whole campaign descended into the worst kind of politics on both sides.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#192

Post by sievebrain »

DanBC wrote: post #43
rjsw wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that a country has to have referendums fairly often for them to work as intended. One problem in the UK was that people were answering different questions to the one asked.

...and basing their answers on blatant lies. (EG We can spend some of the £350m per week on NHS.)

How is that a "blatant lie"?

Does that money go to the EU? Yes.

Would that money be freed up for other uses? Yes.

Would some of it end up being reallocated to the NHS? Very likely, given the politics of the UK.

If you'd said ALL of it WILL go on the NHS then you'd be right, but you aren't arguing with that statement.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#194

Post by sievebrain »

gonvaled wrote: post #150
lmm wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We signed a treaty, as did the rest of the EU; we will comply with that treaty and they should too. And according to the treaty it's us who kick off the article 50 process. If the EU doesn't believe in following its own treaties then what is it even for?

We will respect that treaty. But, as all treaties, there is room for interpretation, which requires good will. Good will towards the UK has run out, and EU should be looking at its interests and nothing more. During the negotiations process, the UK should be treated as what it is, a soon to be ex-member. For example: > Meanwhile, Elmar Brok, a German MEP, CDU member, and chairman of the European parliament committee…

We will respect that treaty. But, as all treaties, there is room for interpretation

In other words you do not want the EU to respect the terms of the treaty.

I guess you approve of Juncker. When asked why the Commission was not punishing France for failing to meet the fiscal discipline targets, his answer was "because it's France". Sharp rebuke from the Dutch swiftly followed.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#195

Post by [deleted] »

sievebrain wrote: post #190
fredley wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In both the US general election and this referendum, the primary forces at play are emotive campaigning backed by false or at the very least misleading information (in our case: portrayal of immigrants, the '£350m a week' figure that has already had some very serious backpeddling, etc. etc.). We have an electorate that is woefully misinformed for a whole host of reasons. How you address this is beyond me.

Simply describing the arguments you disagree with as false and people who listen as idiots is why Remain has lost the referendum. Are you going to learn from that and change your ways? There was lots of flatly false and misleading crap coming from the Remain camp as well. Just look at how Cameron see-sawed on the consequences of an exit. Before his negotiation it was "things will be OK even if we leave, the economy i…

[deleted]

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#196

Post by sievebrain »

Spearchucker wrote: post #133
johnsea wrote: post #99

Maybe the EU as is should also resign and reappear in a better shape. Europe will stay Europe and I don't think everything will shatter now. On the contrary, isn't it a nice demonstration of democracy and treaties can be re-negotiated. I'm quite sure that many people are not happy with the current EU arrangement and would vote to leave (if they could and/or if they weren't so much bound by economic benefits as e.g. G…

" ...isn't it a nice demonstration of democracy and treaties can be re-negotiated... " You understand how this works, right? As part of the EU the UK has bartering clout. As an independent little island with a huge trade deficit and a weak £ it has nothing. So a trade deal with China, for instance, would end with China trading in the UK, and the UK waiting 15 years before trading in China. There is hyperbole in what…

The idea of "clout" is an incorrect belief that is not supported by the data:

http://www.civitas.org.uk/press/no-benefit-for-uk-trade-from...

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#198

Post by dragonmum »

emp_zealoth wrote: post #170
dragonmum wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU's common agricultural policy was actively favoring and subsidizing large EU based multinationals and blocking entry into the market by small scale farmers and producers in developing countries. Seems to me like a huge new market called "the UK" just opened up for genuine and fair trade. So overall, this is probably good for hundreds of millions of people around the world.

Just what. Poland pretty much had only small scale farmers (Apart from some post-communist behemoths that were gangrenic) when it joined the EU. Our farmers have never been better or stronger, 15 years ago going to a countryside was like time travel to 1950. Now the countryside actually is a place to live. Same in Austria or Italy. The cooperatives there function properly. What are you on about?

Please read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Agricultural_Policy

The Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) is the agricultural policy of the European Union. It implements a system of agricultural subsidies and other programmes. It has been repeatedly criticised for its cost (€57.8 billion in 2014)[1] and its environmental and humanitarian effects, including raising food prices and stalling development in poorer countries by preventing them from exporting food to the EU.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#199

Post by secfirstmd »

fredley wrote: post #59
CommanderData wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This government is for austerity and cutting public services and expenditure. He is no less a reflection of his party. Next PM's in line: Theresa May: Pro snoopers (spying) charter. I don't like the term police state but her actions are worryingly in line. Boris Johnson? A very charismatic idiot. His selling point being the golden coloured hairy creature that has permanently occupied his scalp. Yes. We have a great l…

Theresa May is one of the scariest contenders as far as I've seen. Very pro-surveillance and anti-open internet. She would be a (nother) disaster for UK tech. If there's anybody left who hasn't moved to Dublin/Berlin by October.

People of Ireland speaking here:

-Want to stay in the EU?

-Want to trade in the Eurozone?

-Enjoy low corporate tax rate of 12.5%? Pro-business government?

-Enjoy friendly, well educated, English speaking, Pro-American people, good beer, decent music, nice quality of life, low crime and safe green natural environment? (Look how much fun even our soccer fans are http://www.irishexaminer.com/euro2016/euro2016-banter/10-rea...)

Invest in Ireland -> http://www.idaireland.com This has been a public service announcement from the country next door. #irelandlovesyou :)

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#200

Post by jazzyk »

ajuc wrote: post #179
fredley wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In both the US general election and this referendum, the primary forces at play are emotive campaigning backed by false or at the very least misleading information (in our case: portrayal of immigrants, the '£350m a week' figure that has already had some very serious backpeddling, etc. etc.). We have an electorate that is woefully misinformed for a whole host of reasons. How you address this is beyond me.

This was also the reason for the voctory of current anti-european and proto-nationalist government in Poland last year. Misinformation, fear campaign, memes, troll farms. It seems in social media age that's how you do politics. Viral marketing means you never have to say you were wrong.

I agree the new government in Poland is an embarrassment.

But you are mistaken in blaming the electorate. The "misinformation, fear campaign, memes..." have always been around. The primary reason people voted out the previous bunch is corruption and tunneling of the wealth created to a narrow group of people (a problem not limited to Poland only)

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