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Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

reuters.com

191–200 of 383 posts

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#191
post #17

> Litigation finance is typically a business venture. It doesn’t become charity because a wealthy person uses it as a template for a personal crusade and then insists he’s doing everyone else a favor. Why? Many cases brought by individuals or groups on moral grounds have led the way to better governance. A lot of good work has been done by groups such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Why should individuals or g…

> Why? Many cases brought by individuals or groups on moral grounds have led the way to better governance.

Intent matters. One of capitalism's great powers is harnessing the greedy and power-hungry and getting them to at least sometimes work for society. (It's not perfect, but it's better to have Bill Gates trying for a monopoly than starting land wars.) But that doesn't make them great-souled public benefactors. (Although later they do sometimes become that as well.)

Here we can infer intent from design. If Peter Thiel's goal was to help out defenseless individuals harmed by thoughtless journalists, that suggests one set of structures. E.g., a public nonprofit that does advocacy while funding the occasional suit from someone without money or power.

The structure actually chosen was to secretly fund a series of suits against a single publisher with the apparent intent of driving them out of business. The first plaintiff chosen was already rich (net worth, $25m) and famous. And if you talk to journalists, the result isn't to make them generally more careful. It's to make them more afraid of Thiel and other billionaires. [1]

So either A) Thiel is a kind-spirited public benefactor who's just not very competent or B) he's getting exactly the effect he wanted, which was to hopefully crush Denton and scare anybody who plans to write about him, even when the articles they write are perfectly legal. He seems like s smart guy, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and going with B.

[1] e.g.: http://www.wired.com/2016/05/three-cheers-for-peter-thiel/

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#192

Wait a minute. Gawker is no righteous hero here. Let's see if I understand correctly. Gawker outs Thiel (which is nobody's business, yet Gawker decided to make it people's business). Gawker at some point later posts an illegal SEX tape (again, nobody's business). Now, we're supposed to feel sorry for Gawker because Thiel wants to help out another person who was WRONGED by Gawker? Wow. Just wow.

Have you seen Gawker's piece on Thiel? ( http://gawker.com/335894/peter-thiel-is-totally-gay-people ) Surely broke his privacy, but by no means was it offensive. I get how HOGAN would be mad, but this seems like a whining billionaire without better ideas for his money. (irony much?)

Violating someone's privacy is always offensive. Is that really in question? While lots of people say they put little value on protecting privacy, I have never seen them post their medical records or tax returns.

In practical terms for Thiel, there are likely large investors in the world (like say in the middle east) who might not be willing to invest in a VC who is gay, etc.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#193
post #114
post #17

> Litigation finance is typically a business venture. It doesn’t become charity because a wealthy person uses it as a template for a personal crusade and then insists he’s doing everyone else a favor. Why? Many cases brought by individuals or groups on moral grounds have led the way to better governance. A lot of good work has been done by groups such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Why should individuals or g…

Neither side here looks great. It's reasonable for someone to sue Gawker because of what they publish. It's a bit scary to have someone attempt to take down a publishing company just because of a long-held grudge. That's a template for private censorship by the rich.

It's not the legal fees that are doing them in, it's the damages awarded by the judge.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#194
post #38
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly is the difference between "bankroll personal vendettas" and "fight against what you believe is bad"? The latter has to be broke and the former isn't?

Funding a secret lawsuit against a company to try and destroy them for outing you as being gay is not good behavior. This has dangerous precedent for freedom of speech in journalism. If what Gawker did was illegal in outing him, he should have sued for that. If it were just morally objectionable, he should have called them on it and let the public decide how to respond. What this lawsuit says is, "say something about…

Maybe I am not understanding something about the situation, but I don't see the danger.

Thiel is killing gawker via a meritorious lawsuit. I don't see whats problematic about that. If he was throwing frivilous lawsuits at I might agree, but that it isn't the case.

If anything, isn't what Thiel is doing a positive good? We had a victim who didn't have the funds to bankroll his own case, Thiel stepped into do so. Gawker is only in this position because they violated people's rights.

What this lawsuit says is "Say something about rich people they don't like, and they will start funding lawsuits from people you victimize."

If anything, the problem here is that the victims of Gawker need the support of the ridiculously wealthy to take them down.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#195
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Gawker deserved to lose that case. However, the Thiel involvement produced a vindictive and revenge-based strategy to try the case in such a way that Gawker couldn't use their insurance to pay the damages. So I don't think anybody's arguing that Gawker shouldn't have lost that case. But it's clear the motive here wasn't just punishment, it was to put Gawker out of business. And I used to hate Gawker because of a…

Like the site that sold that bought a stolen iPhone and bragged about it? If Gawker has any good content it's coincidence and not because they actively attempt to make it good.

remove "that sold" from above, can't edit anymore.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#196
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an ad hominem, because the article isn't making an argument, and someone questioning his motives isn't saying he's wrong because of his motives.

The article is making an argument (Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons) and, regardless of the author's motives or background, I analyze his arguments. Claiming "isn't saying he's wrong because of his motives" is just reinforcing what I'm trying to say.

That's not an argument, that's a statement. If it were an argument (in the sense that a fallacy like ad hominem applies), he would have a set of premises and a conclusion. Also, the comment we're talking about would have to directly state, "BECAUSE he has ties to Gawker, he is THEREFORE wrong" which is not at all what the above comment is saying.

Furthermore, no one is claiming the article is wrong because the author has ties to Gawker. The claim isn't, "Because the author has ties to Gawker, he is therefore wrong", the claim is, "Because he has ties to Gawker, his premises may be biased."

Also, you can't analyze the author's "arguments" because he doesn't provide one.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#197
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thiel didn't fund tons of frivolous lawsuits (nor did the SPLC). Thiel and SPLC both funded solid lawsuits where the verdict - not litigation costs - is what bankrupts the other party. (A lawsuit is by definition not frivolous if you win.)

"Mr. Thiel was covertly backing Mr. Bollea’s case as well as others"[1]. I don't know how much it's tons, but certainly not only one, and so far seems like the only non-frivolous by that definition. [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/26/business/dealbook/peter-th...

Do you have evidence that the others are frivolous?

Suppose SPLC filed other lawsuits (besides the winning one) against Aryan Nations, not all of which were successful. Would you be similarly concerned?

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it would only be scary if a media company was taken down by a rich entity simply litigating them until they couldn't afford to fight the lawsuits anymore. In this case, Gawker lost because they were in the wrong. I've read exactly two articles re: Thiel vs. Gawker, but....isn't that exactly what's happening? I don't see Gawker's "wrongness" as entirely relevant to the fact that Thiel is ostensibly subsidizing l…

>I don't see Gawker's "wrongness" as entirely relevant to the fact that Thiel is ostensibly subsidizing litigation... It is directly related...If Gawker was not guilty of committing a tort that resulted in actual damages, then Thiel or anyone else would not be financing litigation against Gawker. >Thiel is ostensibly subsidizing litigation in the hundreds of millions of dollars-just to see Gawker go away. Who gives a…

> If Gawker was not guilty of committing a tort that resulted in actual damages, then Thiel or anyone else would not be financing litigation against Gawker.

What's your evidence for this? Plenty of people pay for litigation that doesn't result in actual damages. That's why over the last few decades we have needed to invent anti-SLAPP statues. Which, by the way, we only have in 28 states, so reduction of First Amendment rights via lawsuit is still a big threat to free speech.

> its not like Thiel can prevent Bollea from settling if the amount is agreeable to the client.

Do you have evidence for this? Bollea presumably signed some sort of agreement when taking Thiel's funding, and I'm not seeing why he wouldn't be able to agree not to settle. And certainly Thiel could have structure the funding such that Bollea's incentive to settle was gone. E.g., fundig for up to $50m, but regardless of amount spent, Thiel gets anything from Gawker up to $50m.

> They could have offered Bollea a settlement and avoided litigation

What's your evidence that they didn't? Legal observers think "Gawker must have offered to pay significant damages":

http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/might-an-anti-gawker-benefac...

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#199
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really can't imagine? What if for example the losing party in a law suit was automatically forced to pay the legal expenses of the winning party? That is actually how it works many places outside of the US. It's quite effective at discouraging frivolous lawsuits, and it means that a rich person can't bankrupt a someone by waging a legal attrition war.

It also means a non-rich person can't initiate a lawsuit because they'd be ruined if they lost. There are always uncertainties. Truly frivolous lawsuits tend to be dismissed pretty quickly in any case. But there are many reasonable cases where the outcome is nonetheless uncertain.

The way that problem is solved is to grant the judge power to determine what amount is reasonable given the stakes of the case. You obviously don't get to hire 100 lawyers and claim that all of them are necessary for your defense.

Really, this is a solved problem elsewhere.

Re: Thiel shows why tech billionaires are the new robber barons

#200
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So yeh, I am Team Thiel until the press learn to wield their authority with respect and deference. A good/free press does not and should not exhibit respect and deference to those in power. For a counter-example, see the Russian press, which does show a lot of respect and deference to the Russian ruling class.

Who said deference to those in power? I would hope a free press has the respect not to invade the privacy of private citizens. Do you honestly think the videotape of the sexual exploits of a private citizen is somehow worthy of protection under freedom of the press? Not to mention the tape was illegally procured and Gawker continued to act in flagrant violation of the court ordered redactions. You hear deference and…

> Who said deference to those in power?

You didn't specify who the press is supposed to defer to. So the obvious assumption is "everybody including those in power", especially since we're talking about Peter Thiel who has a not insignificant amount of power due to his wealth.

I don't understand why you keep bringing up the News International voicemail hack which has nothing to do with Gawker and was almost universally condemned because it targeted victims and those with almost no power.

The actions[1] of the Bollea legal team make it clear that this isn't about getting justice for Hulk Hogan, but about destroying Gawker.

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/26/business/dealbook/peter-th...

"Speculation that a secret benefactor was backing Mr. Bollea’s case was whispered during the trial but largely dismissed as a conspiracy theory. It gained currency in large part as a result of an unusual decision Mr. Bollea’s legal team made: It purposely excluded a claim that would have allowed Gawker’s insurance company to help pay for its defense as well as damages. The move struck observers as odd because most plaintiffs seeking damages usually hope to settle the case by leveraging the deep pockets of an insurer."

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