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Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

bbc.com

191–200 of 259 posts

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#191
post #4

"Several have been accused of using legal methods to minimise their tax bills." Since when is it illegal to follow the law? Sure, we all have different opinions on the legal gray areas and of whether certain or all laws are legitimate and to what extent - but come on, that quote is just ridiculous.

The sentence you're quoting refers to the actions of other companies which have come under scrutiny. The BBC article itself doesn't explain the reason behind the raid on Google's office.

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For example, as an Irish company, you can open a subsidiary in France to do business in France. The whole point of the EU single market is that you do not have to do that. You can set up shop in Ireland and sell to the French market until the cows come home. You only owe Irish taxes (modulo the recent completely crazy VAT changes). Laws that say "forget the law, anything we think is unreasonable is illegal" are a gro…

>Laws that say "forget the law, anything we think is unreasonable is illegal" are a growing problem in Europe. It makes the EU look like fools Not trying to start a flamewar here, but the common German/European perspective on the US legal system consists of corporations owning it (because of huge costs), consumers abusing it ("cat in microwave/washing machine/toaster", unreasonable compensations, class action lawsuit…

Wait, what's the alternative to juries deciding whether or not someone is guilty of murder? Having a single judge do it?

Seems to me that it's pretty damned important to be sure that someone is guilty before you lock them up for life. But that just might be my american bias showing through.

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#193
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't know about American law, but in French the notion exists and is called "abus de droit"; just because you can do something "in general", you can't do it with the specific purpose of circumventing another legal obligation. For example, as an Irish company, you can open a subsidiary in France to do business in France. That's a right. But if you're doing business in France essentially, you can't make the French com…

For example, as an Irish company, you can open a subsidiary in France to do business in France. The whole point of the EU single market is that you do not have to do that. You can set up shop in Ireland and sell to the French market until the cows come home. You only owe Irish taxes (modulo the recent completely crazy VAT changes). Laws that say "forget the law, anything we think is unreasonable is illegal" are a gro…

The above scenario was an example illustrating the concept of abuse de droit. No need to get hung up ont he precise specifics.

> Laws that say "forget the law, anything we think is unreasonable is illegal"

Don't look up Scotland's declaratory power if this bothers you. It strikes me as totally reasonable.

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solution: Get rid of tax law as one of the major sub-industries of the legal profession. When I no longer need a lawyer to submit my taxes, I'll start caring about corporate tax loopholes.

Addendum: make filing taxes a largely automated task where data are shared with the government so the online submission is merely a review of what is already on your W-4 (or what have you). Make it so dead simple it should take no more than 15 minutes for the average citizen with a computer. Anything that is purchased or paid to you should already be built in: if you paid mortgage interest, the deduction is automatic…

In Finland personal taxes are pretty much automated. Every year I simply reviewed the taxation summary I automatically received in post, and accepted it by not doing any corrections (which can be sent via online service, or via mail). So basically I wouldn't do anything at all. In half a year I'd either get returns, or would have to pay the missing taxes if I underpaid during the year.

There are many cases where you would still do corrections, such as if you're owning a rental property and did some renovations there. Most of officially regulated things such as capital gains are usually automatically reported by your bank/stock holding service, though.

This is in quite a stark contrast to places where there's a lobby to change the laws yearly to make sure citizens have to use professional services for declaring their taxes.

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#195
post #4

"Several have been accused of using legal methods to minimise their tax bills." Since when is it illegal to follow the law? Sure, we all have different opinions on the legal gray areas and of whether certain or all laws are legitimate and to what extent - but come on, that quote is just ridiculous.

You've misread the sentence. I'll grant it's not clear, but this sentence follows the fairly common British form of "legal methods" meaning "acts involving lawyers", not "acts which are not illegal". So this BBC article is simply stating that various companies have been accused of engaging in legalistic and accounting techniques to minimise their tax bills. Nothing is suggested about whether or not those techniques are illegal. Tax evasion is certainly illegal though!

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#196
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Laws that say "forget the law, anything we think is unreasonable is illegal" are a growing problem in Europe. It makes the EU look like fools Not trying to start a flamewar here, but the common German/European perspective on the US legal system consists of corporations owning it (because of huge costs), consumers abusing it ("cat in microwave/washing machine/toaster", unreasonable compensations, class action lawsuit…

Wait, what's the alternative to juries deciding whether or not someone is guilty of murder? Having a single judge do it? Seems to me that it's pretty damned important to be sure that someone is guilty before you lock them up for life. But that just might be my american bias showing through.

Do you think random Jury's are more skilled than a small panel of judges?

The US uses Juries because as a check on government power. The whole point is jury nullification not factual accuracy.

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#197
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Laws that say "forget the law, anything we think is unreasonable is illegal" are a growing problem in Europe. It makes the EU look like fools Not trying to start a flamewar here, but the common German/European perspective on the US legal system consists of corporations owning it (because of huge costs), consumers abusing it ("cat in microwave/washing machine/toaster", unreasonable compensations, class action lawsuit…

Wait, what's the alternative to juries deciding whether or not someone is guilty of murder? Having a single judge do it? Seems to me that it's pretty damned important to be sure that someone is guilty before you lock them up for life. But that just might be my american bias showing through.

The alternative is to use several professional judges. In Germany for example a murderer is judged by 3 professional judges and 2 semi-professional juryman.

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#198
The BBC article didn't explain why the raids were conducted (mostly likely because it wasn't yet known at the time). Meanwhile, Le Parisien (which appears to have broken the story) has come forward with more details, which have since been translated by other outlets, e.g.:

France’s financial prosecutor’s office said the raids were carried out with the assistance of the police anti-corruption unit and 25 information technology experts. French daily Le Parisien, which first reported the news, said the raid took place at dawn and involved some 100 investigators. Officers were still at the scene Tuesday afternoon.

“These searches are the result of a preliminary investigation opened on June 16, 2015 relative to aggravated tax fraud and organized money laundering following a complaint from French fiscal authorities,” the prosecutor’s office said in a statement. “The investigation is aimed at finding out whether Google Ireland Ltd. is permanently established in France and if, by not declaring some of its activity on French soil, it has failed to meet its fiscal obligations, in particular with regard to corporation tax and value added tax.”

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2016/05/24/french-police-ra...

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#199
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Laws that say "forget the law, anything we think is unreasonable is illegal" are a growing problem in Europe. It makes the EU look like fools Not trying to start a flamewar here, but the common German/European perspective on the US legal system consists of corporations owning it (because of huge costs), consumers abusing it ("cat in microwave/washing machine/toaster", unreasonable compensations, class action lawsuit…

Wait, what's the alternative to juries deciding whether or not someone is guilty of murder? Having a single judge do it? Seems to me that it's pretty damned important to be sure that someone is guilty before you lock them up for life. But that just might be my american bias showing through.

> Wait, what's the alternative to juries deciding whether or not someone is guilty of murder? Having a single judge do it?

A panel of 3 judges. Or properly randomly selected juries. The US system, with a mix of weirdly selected judges and bizarre jury selection seems to be sub-optimal.

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#200
post #196
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, what's the alternative to juries deciding whether or not someone is guilty of murder? Having a single judge do it? Seems to me that it's pretty damned important to be sure that someone is guilty before you lock them up for life. But that just might be my american bias showing through.

Do you think random Jury's are more skilled than a small panel of judges? The US uses Juries because as a check on government power. The whole point is jury nullification not factual accuracy.

> The US uses Juries because as a check on government power. The whole point is jury nullification not fact accuracy.

Nullification is not the whole point (but not insignificant), and factual accuracy is important -- but accountability to the citizenry at large (represented by a jury drawn from the citizenry, rather than professional government officers whose accountability to the public is distant at best) for that factual accuracy is just as important.

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