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GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

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Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#191

Post by sdiq »

mwambua wrote: post #124

I'm a Kenyan and I can tell you that this will do more harm than good. NGO money has been distorting our economy for years now... giving people livelihoods they can't sustain, making job opportunities that create no value and making our government vestigial. The poor people that you're supporting elect the same corrupt politicians every year because they have no idea that the government is supposed to be supporting t…

>The majority of voters don't pay taxes and rely on aid for everything from farm inputs to school fees.

I am a Kenyan too and this is not true. Everyone pays taxes. Though a poor jobless Kenyan should not be paying income taxes, the same group of people still pay VAT for everything else they purchase, bar a few exceptional goods and services.

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#192

Post by jkraker »

nkoren wrote: post #188
mwambua wrote: post #124

I'm a Kenyan and I can tell you that this will do more harm than good. NGO money has been distorting our economy for years now... giving people livelihoods they can't sustain, making job opportunities that create no value and making our government vestigial. The poor people that you're supporting elect the same corrupt politicians every year because they have no idea that the government is supposed to be supporting t…

I upvoted your comment not because I agree with it, but because yours is an important voice to be participating in the discussion, and I'm glad you're here. And actually, I do agree with everything you say about how NGO money distorts the economy. But Basic Income is different, and I urge you to try to understand those differences. Traditional NGO/charity consists of giving money/stuff/services to the poor. The probl…

My take: If institution of a basic income is not accompanied by development efforts within a population to create meaningful opportunities to work, it's not really doing what the population really needs. I don't see a difference between charity and basic income in an environment where extensive economic development is really what is needed. If I don't have an opportunity to work even if I want to work, what difference does it make what the money that is given to me is called?

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#193

Post by sdiq »

s_q_b wrote: post #172
okket wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just giving money will not work, see Saudi Arabia. They have all the money they can dream of and did not evolve. If you want it to work it needs 3 things: 1) Free Education 2) High Taxes 3) Strong Unions Sounds leftist? It may astonish you which countries have the highest ratio of rich persons per capita live. This and a good explanation can be found in "Where in the world is it easiest to get rich? (TEDxOslo)" https…

1) Free Education The Saudi's have a recently reformed education system, complete with a freshly built full-fledged research university: King Abdullah University of Science and Technology (KAUST.) KAUST has a more Western model of education, instruction in English, American and European faculty, partnerships with multiple Ivy League institutions. The current President of KAUST is Jean-Lou Chameau, who was previously…

Education wise they may be doing well. However, I have a feeling they both do not pay taxes and lack unions of any form.

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#194

Post by aninhumer »

home_boi wrote: post #137
dragonwriter wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why wouldn't I just let someone else figure out how to automate jobs? I've got my income. Empirically, people often expend effort to increase their income when there are opportunities available, even if their current income meets basic survival needs. I don't see why that wouldn't continue to be the case with basic income. What, people are going to stop wanting luxuries?

>What, people are going to stop wanting luxuries? Yes, check out /r/financialindependence There's thousands of people living frugally to retire early with ~1-2 million which is basically UBI over a lifetime

Wanting to be financially independent doesn't necessarily mean you want to completely stop working. It just means you want to choose how you spend your time.

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#195

Post by flubert »

mwambua wrote: post #124

I'm a Kenyan and I can tell you that this will do more harm than good. NGO money has been distorting our economy for years now... giving people livelihoods they can't sustain, making job opportunities that create no value and making our government vestigial. The poor people that you're supporting elect the same corrupt politicians every year because they have no idea that the government is supposed to be supporting t…

>they have no idea that the government is supposed to be supporting them.

>elect governments that will create sustainable wealth.

Some people would say that individuals create wealth, and the governments are systems that exist because of the existing levels of wealth in a society. If you want a "generous" government, then you first need a "prosperous" society. Which governments are you thinking of that create sustainable wealth? I'm curious to get a Kenyan perspective on private property rights (i.e. do you think that is a crucial step for creating a "wealthy" society).

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#196

Post by nkoren »

jkraker wrote: post #192
nkoren wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I upvoted your comment not because I agree with it, but because yours is an important voice to be participating in the discussion, and I'm glad you're here. And actually, I do agree with everything you say about how NGO money distorts the economy. But Basic Income is different, and I urge you to try to understand those differences. Traditional NGO/charity consists of giving money/stuff/services to the poor. The probl…

My take: If institution of a basic income is not accompanied by development efforts within a population to create meaningful opportunities to work, it's not really doing what the population really needs. I don't see a difference between charity and basic income in an environment where extensive economic development is really what is needed. If I don't have an opportunity to work even if I want to work, what differenc…

It's simple: a lot of the actual needed "work" in impoverished communities is informal. These communities are quite good at self-organising -- but barter can only get you so far. What cash grants give you is better liquidity for conducting mutually-beneficial exchanges of goods and services locally -- as well as the means of acquiring external resources for facilitating those transactions. In this context, most low-level jobs are self-creating.

Higher-level jobs require a more educated populace -- but it's been shown that when a Basic Income is given, people will naturally seek out greater education -- either travelling to find it remotely, or paying for education services locally. The jobs can't be "brought in" before the populace has the education to fulfil them.

One thing which Basic Income doesn't address, however, is infrastructure creation (or at least infrastructure which can't be sensibly paid for by end-user fees). So there's definitely still a need to address that, Basic Income or no. But for various reasons that should really be done by the government, rather than an NGO.

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#197

Post by ptaipale »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #159
skunkworks wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are poor people supposed to find innovative solutions to their problems and elect governments that create sustainable wealth while they're steeped in desperate poverty? I believe that education is the tip of the spear, but are there any examples where a poor majority has pulled itself up by its bootstraps?

Singapore, South Korea, and Taiwan.

And if you look at what has significance here: it's about free trade and predictable government. Not really freedom or democracy.

People's Republic of China has followed. India, not quite.

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#198

Post by ptaipale »

okket wrote: post #39
troycarlson wrote: post #4

Recently fascinated by the thought of piping donations directly to poor populations and allowing them to use it as they wish. I watched the documentary Poverty, Inc. [0] regarding the "poverty industry" and how endless foreign aid in these countries is killing the economy. If Toms shoes dumps 1,000 pairs of shoes in the city center every week, how the hell would a cobbler stay in business. Or if the U.S. pumps an end…

Just giving money will not work, see Saudi Arabia. They have all the money they can dream of and did not evolve. If you want it to work it needs 3 things: 1) Free Education 2) High Taxes 3) Strong Unions Sounds leftist? It may astonish you which countries have the highest ratio of rich persons per capita live. This and a good explanation can be found in "Where in the world is it easiest to get rich? (TEDxOslo)" https…

What countries did evolve? Not ones that had high taxes or even strong unions. Recently, as mentioned above: Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan.

Yes, education is important. But what also matters is a working government. Strong unions and high taxes are a consequence (you have them once you can afford them), not a tool to achieve wealth.

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#199

Post by notahacker »

scottrogowski wrote: post #81

While I find UBI to be a fascinating idea worthy of consideration, I vehemently disagree with running this experiment in East Africa. The proposal seems to either be blind-to or minimizing the potential for unintended consequences. Decades of trying to alleviate poverty in Africa have taught us, more than anything else, that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Giving food tends to act as “dumping” and wea…

On a scale of economic harms done by intervention in East Africa, I don't think the worst conceivable side effects of this (localised inflation and a bit of resentment from surrounding communities, basically) really compare with the harmful side effects of the everyday trade that East African countries need to participate in to grow economically, and Kenya's economy is very far from an economy untouched by NGO projects as is. On the other hand, the scheme gives a whole bunch of mostly very poor people get to eat a bit better or buy a motorbike without repaying it - probably to an aid-backed MFI - at 60% APR

(and I say that even as someone who's largely unconvinced of a case for UBI in the West, wholly unconvinced this experiment will tell us anything at all about the likely effects of UBI in the West and - from the RCT papers I've read - think the benefits of cash transfers in developing countries are overstated by their most enthusiastic advocates.)

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#200

Post by crdoconnor »

flubert wrote: post #195
mwambua wrote: post #124

I'm a Kenyan and I can tell you that this will do more harm than good. NGO money has been distorting our economy for years now... giving people livelihoods they can't sustain, making job opportunities that create no value and making our government vestigial. The poor people that you're supporting elect the same corrupt politicians every year because they have no idea that the government is supposed to be supporting t…

>they have no idea that the government is supposed to be supporting them. >elect governments that will create sustainable wealth. Some people would say that individuals create wealth, and the governments are systems that exist because of the existing levels of wealth in a society. If you want a "generous" government, then you first need a "prosperous" society. Which governments are you thinking of that create sustain…

Individuals don't build highway systems, rail networks, school systems, transparent and fair courts or the myriad of other things which make countries wealthy.

Africa doesn't need the American cult of the individual to develop. It needs (among other things) America to stop covertly supporting the illegal and corrupt transfers of wealth to tax havens.

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