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TTIP Leaks

ttip-leaks.org

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Re: TTIP Leaks

#191

Post by maxxxxx »

vasilipupkin wrote: post #136
maxxxxx wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know Germany benefits big time from exports. But the benefits have stopped going to the workers. Like in the US wages are stagnating while the "economy" supposedly is doing well.

Really? How do you think Germany gets resources to pay for all the social benefits, pensions etc. if you think growth has stopped, then measures to raise it are a good thing

There would be much less need for social benefits if the pay had kept up with growth. There is a whole generation of perpetual interns (Praktikant) because companies don't hire full-timers.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#192

Post by caoilte »

tazjin wrote: post #120
burkaman wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't every current presidential candidate against TPP and TTIP? Except maybe Kasich, I guess.

Trump and Clinton are the only remaining candidates, and Clinton is flip-flopping on the issue depending on who she's talking to. She only recently did an anti-TPP U-turn - who knows what she stands for after being elected. Fortunately for us she won't be elected though!

> Fortunately for us she won't be elected though!

What makes you think that?

At this point I don't see a way for her to lose, unfortunately.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#193

Post by caoilte »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #53
msvan wrote: post #49

Cecilia Malmström, European Commissioner for Trade, on the documents: > First of all, and contrary to what many seem to believe, so-called "consolidated texts" in a trade negotiation are not the same thing as an outcome. They reflect each side's negotiating position, nothing else. [...] In that sense, many of today's alarmist headlines are a storm in a teacup. [...] No EU trade agreement will ever lower our level of…

This is probably the most important takeaway In most cases TTIP raised the level of consumer protection to the highest on whatever side of the pond was already best (for example Americans see European chicken as raised in shot basically do our chicken farmers will have to up the game (assuming battery hens is something we think is a high standard anyway) As for beef, Germans think the US do beef like we do chickens.…

Everything points toward the opposite - to the extent that TTIP happens at all (which seems unlikely).

At this point I'm most worried that this whole merry go round will just start up again in a couple of years under a new name.

The Multinationals can afford to be patient and keep plugging away at regulation until they've eliminated all of it.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#194

Post by odonnellryan »

gumby wrote: post #167
tacos wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, please report back with a plan that gets the USA from 30 million people in 1860 to 300+ million people today without using the internal combustion engine.

or freed (cumulatively) billions from backbreaking labor.

This is more important. Also, transporting people when they'd die/have horrible conditions otherwise.

I think it is a silly argument to say it helped people by helping them exist in the first place. It is a weird argument for a larger population, which probably isn't a great thing.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#195

Post by caoilte »

tajen wrote: post #80
lumberjack wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'm now wondering is, can the WTO bully US and EU states in the way it can bully third world countries? What if renegade states across both sides of the Atlantic decided to disregard the treaty and the fines that will follow immediately? What will the WTO do then? Sanction them?

I need help in argumenting: What's the difference between the EU-US WTO agreements and the TTIP, apart from the former being from the XXth century. Aren't we happier and wealthier since the WTO exists? Please don't tell me about how a treaty should be voted on by the people, because I already agree about this part.

> What's the difference between the EU-US WTO agreements and the TTIP

WTO was about import tariffs.

TTIP seems to be mostly about de-regulation and legal harmonisation.

PR flaks are counting on the good will that people have towards free trade to allow them to squeeze through a treaty that surrenders democratic sovereignty to multi-national corporation stuffed courts and tribunals.

We may or may not get to vote on the treaty - I don't know. But I do know that if we vote yes then that will be one of the last meaningful things that we do vote on. Pretty much any law you might want to pass post-TTIP would be blocked by the TTIP ISDS process.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#196

Post by scalio »

termain wrote: post #97
yawgmoth wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can have a quantifiable increase in quality of life without it being a meaningful increase in quality of life.

That seems incompleat. Could you continue?

Most quality of life reports include ratings that are some variation on "average monthly income", meaning this nowadays pretty arbitrary measure of wealth aka money that you have no control over is factored into how happy you're supposed to be. Money is not the primary condition for happiness for many people, and markets are a complex thing, meaning having more money does not automatically entail having a better life.

(just my understanding of parent's comment)

Re: TTIP Leaks

#197

Post by tacos »

soperj wrote: post #178
tacos wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, please report back with a plan that gets the USA from 30 million people in 1860 to 300+ million people today without using the internal combustion engine.

Yes, I was talking about that. But if you want an answer, many of the first cars were electric, if they went with the electric engine instead things wouldn't be exactly the same, but would have allowed the US to increase to 300+ million no problem.

I'm sure the electric planes, tanks and aircraft carriers would've made for some interesting historical footnotes in 1939. Assuming we hadn't already all starved due to the lack of food being produced by the electric farm tractors.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#198

Post by caoilte »

levemi wrote: post #189
tajen wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I need help in argumenting: What's the difference between the EU-US WTO agreements and the TTIP, apart from the former being from the XXth century. Aren't we happier and wealthier since the WTO exists? Please don't tell me about how a treaty should be voted on by the people, because I already agree about this part.

> Please don't tell me about how a treaty should be voted on by the people, because I already agree about this part. Direct democracy in diplomacy and trade negotiation sounds like a really terrible idea. It would just be constant protectionism, xenophobia and probably ruin economic growth and everyone will be the worse of for it. Sometimes giving more people a voice does not result in positive outcomes.

That's a really depressing point of view. Especially, as trade seems to have been redefined to mean anything which might enable corporate profit...

Re: TTIP Leaks

#199

Post by jethro_tell »

maxxxxx wrote: post #190
vasilipupkin wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the company and the executives pay taxes from the bottom line Thus, according to your own logic, the state, which pays social security and benefits is better off and is more fiscally sound

How about paying better salaries so the state doesn't have to do that much? Seems the companies want to have it both ways. Not pay much and have the state provide assistance for underpaid workers (see Walmart) and then complain about taxes too high.

>taxes too high.

At 3%, while the majority of earnings goes to the company, the workers carry the tax bill @18%

Re: TTIP Leaks

#200

Post by caoilte »

witty_username wrote: post #92
rkrzr wrote: post #39

This leak once again shows the importance of transparency in negotiations that will impact the lives of 800 million people (and the rest of the world indirectly). If TTIP were ratified, it would be out of the control of any subsequently elected democratic governments as it would be part of international law. Regardless what you think of TTIP it seems like the very least to ask is that a contract of such importance is…

But it will be discussed in the public once it is finalized and IIRC the U.S. Congress has 60 days to pass it.

At least that's more time than Congress got to think about bailing out Wall Street in 2008.
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