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Being a Developer After 40

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Re: Being a Developer After 40

#191

Post by shrewduser »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #180
reefoctopus wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it was always easier than had you been a non white male. Really? You don't think there are advantages to being a woman? That my URM neighbor who got into Harvard law with a 164 LSAT would have had things easier if he were white? Your statement is incredibly racist.

Read all the other comments. I basically said the same thing. White Male Privilege means White males have it easier than everyone else, no matter how hard they have it/had it . That's the definition of "white male privilege". I'm not being racist one bit. Just stating a definition.

is it an advantage for a white male from a poor disadvantaged background with little opportunities has to get higher marks to get into a good college than a minority from an affluent background who has been given every opportunity?

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#192

Post by [deleted] »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #180
reefoctopus wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it was always easier than had you been a non white male. Really? You don't think there are advantages to being a woman? That my URM neighbor who got into Harvard law with a 164 LSAT would have had things easier if he were white? Your statement is incredibly racist.

Read all the other comments. I basically said the same thing. White Male Privilege means White males have it easier than everyone else, no matter how hard they have it/had it . That's the definition of "white male privilege". I'm not being racist one bit. Just stating a definition.

[deleted]

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#193

Post by interpol_p »

reefoctopus wrote: post #168
saulr wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likewise for Computer Science classes in Western Europe (and I imagine North America). This is the issue with arbitrary quotas/targets for hiring female engineers - there is a lack of those qualified. I acknowledge that there is a huge disparity between male/female workers in the field, but the issue is far earlier in an aspiring engineer's life than getting a job. STEM subjects have far fewer female students than ma…

Stop calling it a problem. Why is it a problem that preferences differ? Is it a problem that more women aren't miners or plumbers?

Because we don't completely know whether preferences differ, or whether cultural biases cause those preferences to differ.

I have a young boy and a girl. They are pushed into so many gendered roles from such a young age I have a really hard time trying to figure out what they actually like, versus what society tells them they should like.

My son recently picked up a pink toy in a store and said "I can't have this one because it's for girls, daddy." He used to love the colour pink. I wanted to scream in frustration because society has pushed him to rate a wavelength of light as "for girls" or "for boys." I told him that anyone can like whatever colour they want. But he now refuses to play with pink toys, because society has made it very clear that he's not supposed to touch them.

So yeah, maybe women would make fine plumbers and miners. We have typically pushed men into those roles. So we'll never know.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#194

Post by exstudent2 »

interpol_p wrote: post #176
exstudent2 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was able to go into technology with confidence and social support that many other groups will not have. Where I grew up (in 1980s US), white males were almost universally derided for being into technology. It wasn't until the 2000s that it became "cool". There was no privilege associated with being a geek. It was something many of us did despite the social stigma. That's why it's humorous to see people claim ther…

Same as where I grew up. Geeks were never cool. Being into computers attracted social stigma. You and I went through the same things. It doesn't change what I've said above. I still walked into Computer Science feeling at ease with the course before I started, and feeling easily welcomed among my very nerdy peers. (Plus the one girl in the first class I had. Imagine how she felt. Social stigma of computers and being…

Actually we didn't go through the same things. I grew up in poor rural America. There were no computer science programs. I didn't go to university and most of my peers went to the army or jail.

Would you have felt "at ease" walking into a design course at the fashion institute? How about a freestyle rap battle or a pick-up basketball game? A rodeo?

Different cultures expose their members to different activities. Outsiders may have a tougher time breaking in but it can be done. Finding the strength to do it is admirable. Homogenizing everyone is not.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#195

Post by splintercell »

mnglkhn2 wrote: post #156
ManlyBread wrote: post #105

The article was pretty good until this part. >If you are a white male remember all the privilege you have enjoyed since birth just because you were born that way. It is your responsibility to change the industry and its bias towards more inclusion. I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was rich, I had to put in a tremendous effort to even get into the industry. Assuming I got an easy ride simply because I'm…

The reason I agree with you OP is because, as you, I am also from Eastern Europe and I can recognize the same traits in the current "white privilege" arguments to those that plagued Europe mid-century. Like now, during those times there were people arguing that the Jews are taking all the jobs, the good jobs (doctors, engineers, bankers, etc - basically every profession). And the solution was not to advocate for equa…

> For all the talk about white privilege, I never hear the solutions to it. What is OP supposed to do: not get the job? Not feed his family? How is he supposed to prove that he is aware of his "white privilege"?

The world is divided among two groups of people: people who live for themselves, and people who live for the validation of others.

The latter group believes that changing 'language' results in changing reality. If you want to lose weight, then get a funny mirror which shows you that you're skinny and that would result in you somehow working towards it and becoming skinny. That reality is merely a 'social construct' so modification of the social construct is all what you need to permeate those changes into other parts of the 'reality'.

It's this group of people who believe that minorities aren't succeeding because they don't get enough validation from others. This confuses most of the other people who never cared for this validation.

So people like you or OP says, "But I never needed other people's validation", and these people respond "Oh because you always got the validation, that's why you don't think anyone needs validation".

To answer your question, these people want you to 'validate' minorities. Make it look like that they're successful and apparently that will make them successful.

If you ask me, that just results in creation of pathetic individuals who will never achieve anything real in life.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#196

Post by obstacle1 »

skrebbel wrote: post #171
obstacle1 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We need better language. No, 'we' don't need that. You want better language so that you can better advocate for your pet cause. There is a big difference between need and want, and also between "everyone" and "this interest group that I identify with".

By "we" he meant "this interest group that I identify with", and you know it. No need to heat up the fire under a topic that's already so prone to flamewars.

He was responding to someone who was offering a disagreeing POV, on a public web forum that anyone can read or participate in.

In that context, typing "we need better language" implies identification with the whole audience, i.e. all readers. 'We' does not mean 'my group of political activists' when used in that way.

Hence why the correction is important. Especially given that he was advocating for the redefinition of language in service of a political ideology. If you are going to suggest that 'we need' to clarify and standardize the words we use to refer to things, then you should probably be extremely precise with your own language, no? Otherwise you are just being a patronizing e-tyrant.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#197

Post by foldr »

exstudent2 wrote: post #194
interpol_p wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same as where I grew up. Geeks were never cool. Being into computers attracted social stigma. You and I went through the same things. It doesn't change what I've said above. I still walked into Computer Science feeling at ease with the course before I started, and feeling easily welcomed among my very nerdy peers. (Plus the one girl in the first class I had. Imagine how she felt. Social stigma of computers and being…

Actually we didn't go through the same things. I grew up in poor rural America. There were no computer science programs. I didn't go to university and most of my peers went to the army or jail. Would you have felt "at ease" walking into a design course at the fashion institute? How about a freestyle rap battle or a pick-up basketball game? A rodeo? Different cultures expose their members to different activities. Outs…

How do you figure that getting a more diverse group of people interested in programming will make us more homogenous? Seems like it ought to do the opposite.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#198

Post by fucking_tragedy »

j4kp07 wrote: post #188
interpol_p wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author is not assuming you, personally, got an easy ride. Nor is the author dismissing any and all hardships faced by white males during their lifetimes. It is disappointing that you took his comment that way. Acknowledging that it is easier to make it in the tech industry if you are a white male does not mean that it wasn't hard for you. It just means, for example, that it probably would have been even harder if…

> It just means, for example, that it probably would have been even harder if you were an Eastern European woman who grew up in a poor family. That is an absurd, subjective, abstract theory with no research to back it. The same thing can be said of any sex, race or creed in virtually any instance of life. Get over yourself and quit acting like this is exclusive to white people. White people did not invent sexism. Nei…

If we are talking about America, certain white people certainly profited from stirring up racism here for centuries.

We don't even have to look back to when slavery was legal, the blatant use of racism and dog-whistle politics to gain white racist's votes is well documented as being the core tenet to the Southern strategy.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#199

Post by exstudent2 »

interpol_p wrote: post #193
reefoctopus wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop calling it a problem. Why is it a problem that preferences differ? Is it a problem that more women aren't miners or plumbers?

Because we don't completely know whether preferences differ, or whether cultural biases cause those preferences to differ. I have a young boy and a girl. They are pushed into so many gendered roles from such a young age I have a really hard time trying to figure out what they actually like, versus what society tells them they should like. My son recently picked up a pink toy in a store and said "I can't have this one…

It sounds like your son exercised his free will. Whether you influence him or society does, he ultimately has to be responsible for his choices. Some will be easy, some hard but it's a cliche to disagree with your child's choices.

Maybe he's comfortable with his gender and gender roles? Maybe that will help him get a wife someday and you grandchildren. It's not for everyone but maybe it will be for him.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#200

Post by interpol_p »

exstudent2 wrote: post #194
interpol_p wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same as where I grew up. Geeks were never cool. Being into computers attracted social stigma. You and I went through the same things. It doesn't change what I've said above. I still walked into Computer Science feeling at ease with the course before I started, and feeling easily welcomed among my very nerdy peers. (Plus the one girl in the first class I had. Imagine how she felt. Social stigma of computers and being…

Actually we didn't go through the same things. I grew up in poor rural America. There were no computer science programs. I didn't go to university and most of my peers went to the army or jail. Would you have felt "at ease" walking into a design course at the fashion institute? How about a freestyle rap battle or a pick-up basketball game? A rodeo? Different cultures expose their members to different activities. Outs…

I'm not sure I understand your point.

Are you saying that people should be uncomfortable pursuing their interests if those interests aren't culturally acceptable for their class/gender/race to pursue?

Because I disagree. People should feel comfortable pursuing such interests. We should work to remove the cultural stigma that stops people from participating in fields they would clearly enjoy. It doesn't homogenise anyone.

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