Final Statement on the LambdaConf Controversy • Hacker News Board

Re: Final Statement on the LambdaConf Controversy

#191

Post by rmsrmsrms » Wed, Apr 13, 2016, 3:48 AM UTC

zardgiv wrote: post #189

rmsrmsrms wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument he makes consists of several claims: 1) black people are an ethnic group or race // exact terminology and semantics is debatable 2) being black means you have a lower IQ (on average) // true in the US 3) IQ is in part genetically determined // true 4) the lower IQ of blacks is due to genetics // pure speculation, not possible to verify due to poor environment 5) having a lower IQ makes you a bett…

If you wish hard enough, anything is possible! Unfortunately, we're left to examine the evidence. He could easily defuse all of these situations that have led to him being disinvited in the past. In fact, he made an article specifically for this shitstorm, and nowhere did he disavow these writings. Tying yourself in knots to come up with a way he's OK just makes you look silly, at best.

I was just trying to outline specifically what was bogus about his argument. That claim 4 is pure speculation is a pretty serious flaw. At no point did I make a comment about the conference - I don't even know what I think about it.

Re: Final Statement on the LambdaConf Controversy

#192

Post by tomp » Wed, Apr 13, 2016, 4:37 AM UTC

zardgiv wrote: post #187

tomp wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It'd be great if you have evidence that Moldbug is an ex-con who underwent rehab for his racism! Unlike violent crime, racist speech isn't immediately dangerous. But in any case, if you believe he's a criminal, rally to have him arrested; him being a free man means that he has nothing to go in rehab for. > society's obvious violence against African-Americans You mean, African-American's obvious violence against Afr…

When arguing in favor of a racist speaker on the grounds of free speech, it's probably not the best idea to go off on a tangent quoting a "race realist" publication whose founder said: "Blacks and whites are different. When blacks are left entirely to their own devices, Western civilization — any kind of civilization — disappears" https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/grou...

Didn't realise that... In any case, I was only quoting it gor the statistics presented in the table, which seems to have been copied from a DOJ report, and hopefully not tampered with (although now I'm not so sure any more...).

Re: Final Statement on the LambdaConf Controversy

#193

Post by zardgiv » Wed, Apr 13, 2016, 4:43 AM UTC

tomp wrote: post #192

zardgiv wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When arguing in favor of a racist speaker on the grounds of free speech, it's probably not the best idea to go off on a tangent quoting a "race realist" publication whose founder said: "Blacks and whites are different. When blacks are left entirely to their own devices, Western civilization — any kind of civilization — disappears" https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/grou...

Didn't realise that... In any case, I was only quoting it gor the statistics presented in the table, which seems to have been copied from a DOJ report, and hopefully not tampered with (although now I'm not so sure any more...).

What should be suspect now, and something worth reflecting on, is the narrative being pushed by them since that's usually how "lying with statistics" works.

Re: Final Statement on the LambdaConf Controversy

#194

Post by greenrd » Wed, Apr 13, 2016, 5:18 AM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #103

phillmv wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, of course, obviously. I would not associate myself with, say, someone who in their off time writes long diatribes about how my ethnic group is lazy, incompetent, undeserving of legal rights and fit only to be exterminated or enslaved. I'd be a fool not to shun this person and encourage others to do the same, however nice and pleasant they may be in person. For one, social shaming can, occasionally, be an effecti…

For one, social shaming can, occasionally, be an effective way to change behaviour: it's a short hand for "your opinion is wrong, because all these respectable people say so". For another, I don't have the time and energy or personal obligation to graciously engage with every single person who may be a complete asshole. What Social Media has generated is a millieu that jumps at the chance to engage in social shaming.…

>If that's to apply, then the people who are using it first need to have convinced society at large.

Just FYI, the controversial speaker at issue here quotes Carlyle - a man who advocated slavery, and using lethal force to put down a rebellion of disenfranchised former slaves in Jamaica - approvingly.

Re: Final Statement on the LambdaConf Controversy

#195

Post by greenrd » Wed, Apr 13, 2016, 5:22 AM UTC

rmsrmsrms wrote: post #186

zardgiv wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate you not challenging the fact that he espouses the belief that some ethnic groups are genetically good slaves. However, you must be really confused (or just not thinking very hard) if you think that people are trying to change Moldbug's mind.

I think the argument he makes consists of several claims: 1) black people are an ethnic group or race // exact terminology and semantics is debatable 2) being black means you have a lower IQ (on average) // true in the US 3) IQ is in part genetically determined // true 4) the lower IQ of blacks is due to genetics // pure speculation, not possible to verify due to poor environment 5) having a lower IQ makes you a bett…

Point 5 is moot and offensive because slavery is wrong. Even Moldbug now claims he does not support chattel slavery. However he is very keen on tyranny, which he correctly identifies as akin to slavery.

Re: Final Statement on the LambdaConf Controversy

#196

Post by greenrd » Wed, Apr 13, 2016, 5:36 AM UTC

tjic wrote: post #110

d_t_w wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But the conference wants to have an air of professionalism" There is very little chance Yarvin would get past the HR department of any client I can think of, are there professional environments you can think of where his reputation wouldn't cause significant difficulties to participation? I'm not sure an argument from professionalism is the appropriate one. More if you have a club you can invite whoever you like, an…

> There is very little chance Yarvin would get past the HR department of any I think this is an intended as an attack on Yarvin, but it makes much more sense to me as an attack on HR departments. If HR departments are filtering out tech ically astute candidates bc of what they do out of the office , they are harming the corporation.

It depends. I wouldn't hire Yarvin, because his record of alleged racist writing and speech suggest he would be a lawsuit waiting to happen. But Lambdaconf appear to have decided that explicitly muzzling his alleged racist and political views for the duration of the conference is likely to work, or at least it makes sense to give him the benefit of the doubt, and I agree on that. Also, similarly, my standards on who I would wish to work with are stricter than who would deter me from attending a technical conference. Calling supporters of Nelson Mandela mother f*ers is not a good culture fit.

Re: Final Statement on the LambdaConf Controversy

#197

Post by rmsrmsrms » Wed, Apr 13, 2016, 6:08 AM UTC

greenrd wrote: post #195

rmsrmsrms wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument he makes consists of several claims: 1) black people are an ethnic group or race // exact terminology and semantics is debatable 2) being black means you have a lower IQ (on average) // true in the US 3) IQ is in part genetically determined // true 4) the lower IQ of blacks is due to genetics // pure speculation, not possible to verify due to poor environment 5) having a lower IQ makes you a bett…

Point 5 is moot and offensive because slavery is wrong. Even Moldbug now claims he does not support chattel slavery. However he is very keen on tyranny, which he correctly identifies as akin to slavery.

Sure, ok. Just to be clear, since it's possibly unclear, I wasn't claiming 5 myself.

Re: Final Statement on the LambdaConf Controversy

#198

Post by shkkmo » Wed, Apr 13, 2016, 5:25 PM UTC

rmsrmsrms wrote: post #186

zardgiv wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate you not challenging the fact that he espouses the belief that some ethnic groups are genetically good slaves. However, you must be really confused (or just not thinking very hard) if you think that people are trying to change Moldbug's mind.

I think the argument he makes consists of several claims: 1) black people are an ethnic group or race // exact terminology and semantics is debatable 2) being black means you have a lower IQ (on average) // true in the US 3) IQ is in part genetically determined // true 4) the lower IQ of blacks is due to genetics // pure speculation, not possible to verify due to poor environment 5) having a lower IQ makes you a bett…

I said I wasn't going to be drawn into this, but here I go anyway...:

I'm pretty sure he does believe 4), but also believes that IQ is not that important and that other things (such as character) matter more.

> Once you stop believing in the mystical importance of intelligence, I think it's very easy to accept that it's unequally distributed (as athletic talent certainly is). I understand that this is very hard for our society, and especially for people like me who grew up believing that good grades were holy and professors were gods.

He doesn't make the 5) claim you attribute to him:

> I would make a terrible agricultural laborer and an awful agricultural slave. (I am also not very good at being a master, though for different reasons.) Am I praising myself for this lack of talent? Yes, it may have something to do with my high intelligence. (It also has something to do with my poor character.) Intelligence can be a liability. You don't have to be an agricultural slave to realize this -- all you need to do is go to an American high school.

Re: Final Statement on the LambdaConf Controversy

#199

Post by shkkmo » Wed, Apr 13, 2016, 5:27 PM UTC

zardgiv wrote: post #185

shkkmo wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does that have to do with what I was talking about? To the best of my knowledge, he was not advocating for the enslavement of anyone. However, I don't care to argue about or defend his writings. My issue is with the belief that by alienating someone from your 'polite society' you will somehow shame them into changing their views. Social shaming works only when it is done by people within the shame-ee's social gr…

I appreciate you not challenging the fact that he espouses the belief that some ethnic groups are genetically good slaves. However, you must be really confused (or just not thinking very hard) if you think that people are trying to change Moldbug's mind.

The person I was responding to was using social shaming as one of this two justifications for exclusion.

I don't appreciate your tone.

Re: Final Statement on the LambdaConf Controversy

#200

Post by tatterdemalion » Wed, Apr 13, 2016, 5:43 PM UTC

Turing_Machine wrote: post #188

tatterdemalion wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This factually false. Preventable deaths as the result of government policy are atrocious, but they are not murder. "Capitalists" would not come out looking good either if the deaths that resulted from government policy in capitalist countries were called "capitalist murders." EDIT: To be clear, I'm not saying the gulags weren't murder, or that the Holodomor wasn't murder. I'm saying the only way you get to canards l…

I'm saying the only way you get to canards like "communists murdered 100 million people" (100 million is a lot of people) is including people who died as the result of poor central planning in situations where there is no evidence for genocidal or repressive intent. If you lock someone in a room, prevent him from leaving, and don't give him food, he will die, and you will be (correctly) charged with murder. Can you n…

You are deeply ignorant about modern history and your posts are thinly veiled ideological statements. It would be better for everyone if you didn't post.