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Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

nytimes.com

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Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#191

Post by franzpeterstein »

joantune wrote: post #20
franzpeterstein wrote: post #2

why show me nyt on my smartphone a login, but on desktop nothin'?

because of a 'nytimes protection' that only allows you to read 10 articles/month. You're supposed to be a 'hacker' so ask yourself, how does the WWW allows one to be tracked (don't think of the more advanced methods [HSTS, WebGL and the sort] think of how the actual vintage WWW protocol allows one to do that). PS: for a quick solution, use incognito mode.

>> think of how the actual vintage WWW protocol allows one to do that.

Thank you for your inspiring comment.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#192

Post by 6stringmerc »

gukov wrote: post #177
6stringmerc wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely; he's stated as much flat out. "I want to make it easier to sue the press." As Trump so clearly shows, it's very easy to sue somebody in the US (or use it as an empty threat) - there's lots of avenues for recourse. Unfortunately for Trump, the courts have consistently sided with the press when they report accurate and factual statements, even if they may be unflattering. This doesn't seem to register with…

So let him sue and let the courts deal with it. Do you think the media needs to be a little more accountable or the hysteria is good?

To answer your question, yes, I do think the media needs to be a little more accountable, and to clarify, I fully believe it should be to a person or entity of character and with a steadfast reaspect for truth - qualities of which Donald Trump's behavior and statements certainly do not reflect.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#193

Post by cm3 »

m00dy wrote: post #151
cm3 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because Turks are treated in Germany the same way Moroccans are in Netherlands. Both parties are to blame, but no matter what a Turk does, it will at least be another 50 years before they're accepted as Germans. Just look at the German media. When somebody with a migration background would get some award, they're quick to point out (s)he is from Germany, hiding the background. But when (s)he does something peo…

>That's because Turks are treated in Germany the same way Moroccans are in Netherlands. I don't know anything about Germany nor Morocco. I am a Turk. I lived in Spain, Finland one year each and I'm now in Sweden. I felt that treatment against Turks in Finland. No matter what you do, if you say something about your origin, make sure yourself that something is going to be bad. Spain was awesome and I was totally accept…

What I've heard from Swedes during my last visit, when I wondered about the beggars sleeping in front of building in the city is that it's a taboo that people do not like talking about. I hope this is not the case and you're right that they're open in that regard.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#194

Post by cm3 »

Udo wrote: post #59
cm3 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because Turks are treated in Germany the same way Moroccans are in Netherlands. Both parties are to blame, but no matter what a Turk does, it will at least be another 50 years before they're accepted as Germans. Just look at the German media. When somebody with a migration background would get some award, they're quick to point out (s)he is from Germany, hiding the background. But when (s)he does something peo…

> That's because Turks are treated in Germany the same way Moroccans are in Netherlands. I think the experience of this particular group-based conflict varies wildly depending on life circumstances. In particular, living in a nice neighbourhood and purposefully modelling their lives on middle class Germans, my ex' parents didn't see a lot of conflict or direct hostility. But I can still see how they may have felt iso…

Heck, I would be scared if I had to deal with Munich police. So, even for German-Germans it's not the same in each part of Germany.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#195

Post by Silfen »

stale2002 wrote: post #166
gkya wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoting my grandparent comment: > In the end, though, this should be left to the authors will, to decide whether or not it is moral to say what he says. Because when state is involved the slightest, it can be involved more. Who decides what incites violence? So to this I agree: > Actually, it is. Freedom of speech can't be whatever seems civil to each person, it's a binary issue. Either you have it or you don't. What…

"One cannot say anything and go by." Yes you CAN. Nobody has a right not to be offended. You don't have to be mindful of what you say. That's not freedom of speech.

GP isn't talking about taking legal action against offensive speech. If you're offensive, it is entirely reasonable for people to take social action against you - like branding you an asshole - but you should never be arrested or punished by the state.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#196

Post by pluma »

tomp wrote: post #114
pluma wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racism in Germany is not the same as racism in the US or necessarily other parts of the EU. "Südländer" ("people from Southern countries") are effectively treated as an ethnic group, although this includes Italians and Spaniards alongside Turks (but in some cases also Arabs and other non-"whites"). There's also the racist slur "Ölauge" ("oil-eye"), which while ostensibly about eye colour is typically used to refer to…

I'm guessing a better word for this would be "xenophobia".

Okay, a semantics argument.

There's one concept most people (especially those who haven't studied sociology) call "racism". It's a mechanism that used to be very useful for our survival 40k-odd years ago when people who looked different were likely not from our tribe and likely hostile to us or at least had no allegiance to our tribe and could thus not be trusted. They're different, they don't know us, we don't know them, they might hit us over the head with a rock, we should be cautious or even chase them away. In a modern society this instinct is still present but obviously far less helpful and tends to make things difficult for us.

The other concept is also called "racism", although I'd prefer to call it "Racism" (with a capital R). This is what feminists try to talk about when they tell people they're "racists". It's not necessarily about the actions or thoughts of any individual and certainly not about mere acknowledgement of the differences between two cultural or ethnic groups of people. It's about the systemic effect (lowercase r) racism can have in a society, making life hard for people in groups that are already disadvantaged and preventing them from achieving equality.

You could argue that the "technical term" for the former type of racism is actually xenophobia. You could argue that academia gets to define semantics and everybody else please should stop using the terms incorrectly thank you very much. But it's more productive to acknowledge that widely used terms have well-established meanings in colloquial English and communication can ultimately only work if the majority can agree on what they are talking about.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#197

Post by cm3 »

cm3 wrote: post #75
Udo wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's because Turks are treated in Germany the same way Moroccans are in Netherlands. I think the experience of this particular group-based conflict varies wildly depending on life circumstances. In particular, living in a nice neighbourhood and purposefully modelling their lives on middle class Germans, my ex' parents didn't see a lot of conflict or direct hostility. But I can still see how they may have felt iso…

To expand on this, it's exactly a thousand little ways that add up. In your day to day business, like an an African American, there is no visible discrimination, but in any case of disagreement one party quickly pulls the you're-from-the-other-tribe card. Goes for both sides. I stood by when a Turkish friend got accused by a German-German to be a sleazy Turk who lives off the state (which he clearly does not), just b…

Rattenfaengertum is a word which can be summed up with Pied Piper, if you know the story. Sorry to English readers who had been wondering. Ratte = rat, fangen = to catch, tum = utility suffixed almost like dom but more as in ness like somethingness.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#198

Post by cm3 »

tremon wrote: post #159
microtonal wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because Turks are treated in Germany the same way Moroccans are in Netherlands. But I fully agree with your observation. But I think there is hope. For instance, the mayor of the second-largest Dutch city (Rotterdam) is a Moroccan immigrant. Such people are role models for people with an immigrant background (you can make it in The Netherlands) and a Dutch background (in terms of acceptance).

Rotterdam is actually the largest Dutch city, though second in rank (Amsterdam is the capital, but it's smaller than Rotterdam).

The ironic part of Netherlands or France is that they had been major colonial players, and in the case of France, are now not accepting people from places that were made to be part of the French Empire as real French is baffling on first sight. But then again people from Bretagne distance themselves from those in Paris, and let's not mention Corsica :-).

The only way to counter all of it are cold hard scientific truths, not sentiments out of existential scares due to too many "others" being around.

I've always wondered how the Brits managed to integrate people of African heritage so well. Maybe it's just that they're for the most part Christians. But that would be too simple an explanation me thinks.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#199

Post by hussong »

elcapitan wrote: post #92
taejo wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moreover, this right is established by a treaty between the German states, rather than by a law of the federal government.

So there's basically a media bureaucracy that can decide how much money it wants to earn, without asking any customers. Awesome!

Side note: as someone who pays that fee, I would never think of myself as a 'customer' of public broadcasting, since it's a public service -- just like I wouldn't think of myself as a 'customer' of hospitals, schools, communal waste disposal, the fire department or law enforcement.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#200

Post by tremon »

laxentasken wrote: post #11
chinathrow wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. And they want to join the EU...!

And why wouldnt they? What really bugs me is that probably will be let into EU.

I think Turkey won't become a full EU member for at least 20 years. Turkey is childishly sensitive about its military past, and still refuses to acknowledge Cyprus, which is a full EU member state.

I've found the following 2013 status report [1] which is surprisingly readable. From this document (my interpretations, not quotes):

As a prelude to EU membership, the EU and Turkey entered a Customs Union in 1995. The formal accession process, which requires that Turkey ratify and comply with 35 chapters, was started in 2001 but put on hold in 2004 by Turkey's refusal to accept Cyprus (a new EU member) as part of the Customs Union.

Between 2006 and 2011, hardly any progress was made, with the EC and EP basically playing good-cop bad-cop with Turkey: the Commission would highlight the few positive steps made, while the Parliament kept slamming Turkey over the slow pace of change. This made the support for the EU changes wither in Turkey.

In July 2012, Cyprus gained presidency of the EU and Turkey halted all formal talks, although the EC (again playing good cop) did continue negotiations about visa requirements between Turkey and the EU. Then the 2013 Gezi park protests happened, and that only soured the relationship more.

As of today, only 15 out of 35 chapters in the accession process have even been opened, and only one (Science&Research) has been completed. Since Turkey's first application for EU membership in 1987, 17 states have completed the full membership process, while Turkey's PM keeps making clear that he doesn't even understand the fundamental principles underlying Europe's free society.

No, I really don't see Turkey moving closer towards the European Union. Maybe when the AKP loses power...

[1] http://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RS22517.pdf

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