We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else • Hacker News Board

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#191

Post by dominotw » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 5:32 PM UTC

kimdouglasmason wrote: post #159

MajorLOL wrote: post #156

>Those of us who have families simply can not afford to do this. Then don't take the job? Your life choices (Children, wife, loan payments) aren't the fault or social responsibility of your prospective employer. Why get so uppity about a job you aren't even going to apply for?

Children are a life choice? You're part of the problem.

>Children are a life choice? You're part of the problem.

Are they not though? Aren't you consciously choosing engage in this optional activity when you decide to have kids.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#192

Post by BurningFrog » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 5:34 PM UTC

phamilton wrote: post #92

We used to ask "What makes this candidate weird?" during the decision meeting. It wasn't always a deal breaker, but it was very important that the team would be different after hiring someone. We hired quite a few non-CS grads, whether they came via a boot camp or were just self taught. We ended up with a ragged team of misfits and it was awesome. I've never worked on a team that was so effective at challenging assum…

It's well known in sports that a good team will beat a collection of individual stars.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#193

Post by szx » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 5:34 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #143

ghaff wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He does go on to say that it's 10-20 hours per week that they can do on nights and weekends for which they are paid. That said, I don't really disagree with your basic point. Under the appropriate circumstances, some limited paid contract work can make sense. For example, for an industry analyst job, we used to ask for writing samples. In retrospect, asking them to write something on a specific topic (and paying for…

So candidates are expected to work evenings and weekends instead of spending that time with their families? The process seems to strongly favor young and single folks. Then again maybe that's fully intended. The tech industry has a huge ageism problem after all.

Can you suggest a better alternative?

Then again, maybe it's time to stop looking for a one size fits all solution and acknowledge that (in an ideal world) we might want to have different processes for different candidates, depending on their life situation and/or individual priorities?

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#194

Post by MadManE » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 5:35 PM UTC

Gyonka wrote: post #4

I really agree with the sentiment of audition projects. The interviews I have enjoyed the most all involved some sort of take-home project, although I have never been paid for one. On that note, how expensive does it become for a startup to dole out many interview projects across a wide range of candidates? I think a better strategy would be to conduct preliminary interviews and then based on some granularity, assign…

I got asked to do an audition project as part of an interview last year. After completing the phone interview and receiving the project, I determined that this was something that they were having trouble getting ideas for, and were simply using the interview process to jump start it. I declined to participate and told them I would look for work elsewhere.

If the project is a couple hours, then sure, I have no problem with it. When it's an entire real project for the company, you're just donating a week's work to someone in the hope of getting an offer letter.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#195

Post by wdmeldon » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 5:37 PM UTC

stuxnet79 wrote: post #174

wdmeldon wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. 11 years before you gave up on them changing. That's both impressive and depressing. I lasted about 2 and half years last place I worked.

2 and a half years also feels too long to me. But in order to not look like a "job hopper" is that the standard time I should expect to stay at a place or is 1 year good enough.

It was too long but of course I didn't realize it at the time. From what I've gathered, as long as it isn't with every job, you don't have to stay that long.

But don't take my career advice. I only really know what not to do at this point.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#196

Post by jandrese » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 5:37 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #137

maxaf wrote: post #127

> The most significant shift we’ve made is requiring every final candidate to work with us for three to eight weeks on a contract basis. Are you fucking kidding me? What am I going to tell my current employer while I "audition" for the mere possibility of a next job? Most working adults in the US don't even get three to eight weeks of discretionary vacation that they aren't already using to spend time with family or,…

It's amazing that you'd go through all sorts of hand-wringing to supposedly eliminate (or at least claim to feel bad about) bias, and then put people through a mandatory process to basically go back to square one. You're implicitly excluding mid career employees with actual obligations, single mothers, people with obligations outside of work, and people who work for companies with contracts that assert copyright for…

Just how enforceable are those "we own everything you do on your time off" contract clauses? I've seen those in a lot of tech jobs and they seem like textbook overreach to my non-lawyer eyes.

Are there any cases of people working on some open source project on nights/weekends and have their employer swoop in later and claim copyright because of their employment contract? Has it ever stood up to legal scrutiny?

Whatever happened to just hiring someone on a contingency basis? Sure it will cost more if the person ends up being a bad fit since you'll be paying unemployment and they'll be out of a job entirely, but it's far more schedule friendly and less sketchy than this "pretend to be a moonlighting contractor" bit.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#197

Post by Domenic_S » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 5:37 PM UTC

rokhayakebe wrote: post #165

ska wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You can teach everyone to be a great programmer" You really can't - but it doesn't matter. This has nothing to do with programming specifically. You can train most people to do most tasks. With a modicum of natural inclination, competent. With a bit of interest, good. With a willingness to work hard, very good. However, you can't ever train greatness. You can't make it by any method - only they can. Your broader poi…

Since there will never be a consensus on the definition of "great programmer" you really cannot argue this point.

With maybe 100 exceptions ever, there is no universally great programmer, there is only "great programmer for the job."

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#198

Post by enraged_camel » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 5:38 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #54

Gyonka wrote: post #4

I really agree with the sentiment of audition projects. The interviews I have enjoyed the most all involved some sort of take-home project, although I have never been paid for one. On that note, how expensive does it become for a startup to dole out many interview projects across a wide range of candidates? I think a better strategy would be to conduct preliminary interviews and then based on some granularity, assign…

When you're looking for someone to install hardwood floors for you, do you ask them do the doghouse for you first, before you decide to hire him?

It depends on whether they can show me some of their previous work, usually in the form of pictures from past projects. Serious vendors even invite prospective clients to their stores where they will have a "demo room" showcasing their work.

If they have neither, then it's absolutely fair to ask them to do a small audition project first. Otherwise how can you be sure they're competent?

Keep in mind this idea doesn't exist just in recruitment. It's basically recruitment's version of what's called a "proof of concept", which is proof that the party that is pitching/asserting something (i.e. their skill) can actually deliver.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#199

Post by wvenable » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 5:40 PM UTC

maxaf wrote: post #127

> The most significant shift we’ve made is requiring every final candidate to work with us for three to eight weeks on a contract basis. Are you fucking kidding me? What am I going to tell my current employer while I "audition" for the mere possibility of a next job? Most working adults in the US don't even get three to eight weeks of discretionary vacation that they aren't already using to spend time with family or,…

Stackoverflow and every business in the Joel-universe is about hiring very junior candidates.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#200

Post by andrewstuart » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 5:41 PM UTC

phamilton wrote: post #92

We used to ask "What makes this candidate weird?" during the decision meeting. It wasn't always a deal breaker, but it was very important that the team would be different after hiring someone. We hired quite a few non-CS grads, whether they came via a boot camp or were just self taught. We ended up with a ragged team of misfits and it was awesome. I've never worked on a team that was so effective at challenging assum…

"but it was very important that the team would be different after hiring someone."

Makes no sense to me. Why should the team need to be different? Why should the team need to be the same? This is Voodoo recruiting - some belief that a company has formed that really is meaningless but becomes an important part of the companies recruiting culture.

Will our team be different? Are they weird? Shake the chicken bones, dance around the fire and we'll get a good hiring decision.