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The cold fusion horizon

aeon.co

191–198 of 198 posts

Re: The cold fusion horizon

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very common for people who are totally not fools to get sucked into free energy scams. This is one of the better ones being demonstrated at the technical univeristy of Delft I believe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHW6b1aFPfU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKCEceWs-Gc

nice. how did it play out? has it been debunked?

This site has a lot of information http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Muammer_Yildiz_Magnet...

There was some sort of plan in the works to have a model undergo a 30 day examination at a major European university. But (surprise surprise) there's no information to suggest that ever happened.

Another experimenter tried to replicate the device from the patent without success. http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Muammer_Yildiz_Magnet...

Yildiz got involved in some sort of legal dust-up in Germany: http://pesn.com/2013/01/09/9602262_Yildiz_Tells_the_Story_Ab...

As of May 2015 they were said to be preparing a "sales launch" and licensing distributors: http://pesn.com//2015/05/05/9602616_Yildiz-preparing-for-sal...

Re: The cold fusion horizon

#192
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Muon-catalysed fusion reduces the width of the barrier - the muon is ~200 times closer to the nucleus (since it's that much heavier) and so the coulomb barrier is that much narrower - and the reaction rate is exponential in that.

Sure, it makes sense that it affects the Coulomb barrier (or the Gamow factor/window https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamow_window ), but doesn't muon-catalysed fusion kind of prove that cold fusion could exist? The Wikipedia article suggests that the reactions can take place at room temperature, with the main issue being the reliability of the required reactions. In other words, we already have one proven method for…

It probably isn't. In fact it almost definitely isn't (there was some work which showed palladium matrices should accelerate beta-decay processes a little).

But there's no model which supports any of the proposed mechanisms for cold fusion currently put forward as possibly workable devices - i.e. it's not theoretically possible, and there's no solid path to show that it might be.

Re: The cold fusion horizon

#193
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Muon-catalysed fusion reduces the width of the barrier - the muon is ~200 times closer to the nucleus (since it's that much heavier) and so the coulomb barrier is that much narrower - and the reaction rate is exponential in that.

Sure, it makes sense that it affects the Coulomb barrier (or the Gamow factor/window https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamow_window ), but doesn't muon-catalysed fusion kind of prove that cold fusion could exist? The Wikipedia article suggests that the reactions can take place at room temperature, with the main issue being the reliability of the required reactions. In other words, we already have one proven method for…

The standard model is very solidly established, and it tells us what fundamental particles there are. The muon is the most stable negatively charged particle other than the electron; the Xi is about 10000x shorter-lived, and the tau 1000x shorter than that - and even muons aren't stable enough to be practical.

More importantly, these things are physics rather than chemistry. No amount of chemistry will produce muons from ordinary chemicals, you have to use high-energy radiation. (Admittedly molecular bonds distort electron orbitals a little bit, but nothing like the factor of 200 you get from switching them for muons). If someone had a way to catalyse any kind of nuclear process with chemistry (something as simple as making a radioactive element decay faster) that would be a major breakthrough. To jump straight to the single most useful one would be too much to hope for.

Re: The cold fusion horizon

#194
post #4

I understand the argument about the sociological reputation trap, but a little more reading about Rossi's research turns up some very fishy evidence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer In particular, the copper supposedly generated by the fusion of hydrogen and nickel has an isotopic composition very similar to that of natural copper, rather than what one would expect from byproducts of nuclear reactions.…

You clearly have no idea of what the legislative landscape looks like in italy wrt environmental protection.

Results have been duplicated by two independent institutions of which one is the oldest university on the planet.

Im guessing professional envy may be the biggest problem Rossi faces..

Re: The cold fusion horizon

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not aware of any scientist that 'opposes LENR', I am however aware of a lot of scientists (and lay-people for that matter) that are skeptical of Rossi. And most scientists will take a much harder look at anything LENR related before committing their names and reputations to it leaving the field wide open to the fringe, with predictable results. It's not dis-similar to how people working on AI would call it anythi…

> I'm not aware of any scientist that 'opposes LENR' Say what? From the article: Ever since 1989, in fact, the whole subject has been largely off-limits in mainstream scientific circles. Authors who do put their head above the parapet are ignored or rebuked. Most recently, Lundin and Lidgren reported that they had submitted their paper to the journal Plasma Physics and Controlled Fusion, but that the editors declined…

> Most recently, Lundin and Lidgren reported that they had submitted their paper to the journal Plasma Physics and Controlled Fusion, but that the editors declined to have it reviewed; and that even the non-reviewed preprint archive, arxiv.org, refused to accept it.

Since when is a journal under obligation to review or accept a publication?

They're free to publish it on their own website.

> I wish I could remember the name of the physicist whose career was destroyed for no more than being publicly seen to entertain the possibility that cold fusion could be real.

Well, history will vindicate him if it is real. That's the way these things go and cold fusion is not an exception to this. Any kind of very much off the beaten path scientific idea that turns out to be true after all has gone the same route. There are even cases of Nobel prizes being awarded many years after the original discovery.

One thing I do know about cold fusion: nobody to date has been able to demonstrate beyond doubt the production of a net energy surplus over an extended period.

And since evidence would be very easy to provide we don't need to rely on rumors for this, just show the device and we'll call it the breakthrough that it is. And I'm sure that even nature would be more than happy to publish the write-up in that case.

Re: The cold fusion horizon

#196
post #128

The article seems to be lost on a large number of commenters who are asserting (or almost asserting) that this is a scam because (1) Rossi seems to have a dubious history (I'm only going by the comments, not my own investigation) and (2) Rossi is secretive (3) Rossi is not a notable scientist from a top-tier University (4) Rossi comes across as overconfident. This is what the article is pointing out. The author is sa…

There is almost no reason to give him the benefit of the doubt. You could watch tv instead or go for a walk than listen to him and you'd spend your time better. Who he is matters and his past matters as well. I (some no name from the Internet) can't walk in to a public University and say, I want to be a physics professor. Sure, there is a 0.000001% I maybe be qualified and be a great professor. But my background does…

In this case there has been some independent verification of an anomaly. If the rest of the world took the attitude that you did there would be no follow up and we would base all of our decisions on the scientists reputation. That's bad science and bad for science.

Re: The cold fusion horizon

#197
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cold fusion IS theoretically impossible I think that's a bit strong. Nuclear theory does not say the energy isn't there (as the subject article of this comment thread points out). It also does not say it is impossible for the potential barrier between the nuclei (which is what makes it necessary to have high temperatures for conventional fusion to work) to be lowered somehow; someone upthread posted a reference to…

It's not a bit strong. You refute your own refutation. You use the words 'somehow', 'if', and 'currently'. That's kind of the whole point. _Currently_ there is no theory that explains how to do fusion without massive amounts of heat, ergo cold fusion IS (currently) theoretically impossible.

> ergo cold fusion IS (currently) theoretically impossible

You can't qualify "theoretically impossible" with "currently", because that concedes the point. Honest theorists don't say something is "impossible" unless it is known to be impossible, period; not just "our current theories can't explain it", but "our current theories, in regimes where they are well confirmed experimentally, contradict it".

For example, the scam about a "water-fueled engine" is theoretically impossible--it's not just that our current theories of chemistry can't explain how such a thing would work; it's that our current theories of chemistry can explain, in detail, why such a thing cannot work, based on a huge body of experimental knowledge about chemical reactions involving water.

That is not the case with cold fusion. Our current theories can't explain how it would work, but they also can't rule it out. The regime in question is not well explored experimentally. Honest theorists don't make claims about something being "theoretically impossible" if the regime in question is not well explored experimentally. They may say it is "theoretically extremely unlikely", but that's an opinion based on someone's judgment about how likely it is that something new will turn up in this experimental regime that our current theories don't cover. It's not the same as "impossible".

Re: The cold fusion horizon

#198
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it makes sense that it affects the Coulomb barrier (or the Gamow factor/window https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamow_window ), but doesn't muon-catalysed fusion kind of prove that cold fusion could exist? The Wikipedia article suggests that the reactions can take place at room temperature, with the main issue being the reliability of the required reactions. In other words, we already have one proven method for…

The standard model is very solidly established, and it tells us what fundamental particles there are. The muon is the most stable negatively charged particle other than the electron; the Xi is about 10000x shorter-lived, and the tau 1000x shorter than that - and even muons aren't stable enough to be practical. More importantly, these things are physics rather than chemistry. No amount of chemistry will produce muons…

> these things are physics rather than chemistry

The atoms of palladium in the cold fusion experiments don't know that they're supposed to be doing "chemistry" rather than "physics". That division is only in our theories, not in reality.

> (Admittedly molecular bonds distort electron orbitals a little bit, but nothing like the factor of 200 you get from switching them for muons)

This is a valid concern, but as I understand it, the suggestion is that strong electric or magnetic fields have to be applied in order to induce cold fusion, so we're not just talking about the distortion of orbitals from molecular bonds, we're talking about the distortion due to strong externally applied fields, which can be much larger.

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