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Windows game developer about porting to and using OS X

shiningrocksoftware.com

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Re: Windows game developer about porting to and using OS X

#191

Post by shmerl »

pjmlp wrote: post #189
shmerl wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Professionals, as in release AAA games. Term AAA is ambiguous. Please define it. If you mean publisher funded (a common meaning), then see above. If you mean big budget, then your remark about independent developers is invalid as well (there are independent studios with big budget games). Anyway, I don't see how any of that is related to professionalism. Funding method or budget size has nothing to do with it. > Of…

> Simple example - most legacy publishers don't even release games for multiple APIs (such as OpenGL), because of costs. I.e. they are hostages of lock-in. That exactly demonstrates the issue above, and the fact that it has a direct impact. It is not how it works in the industry. They focus on one platform, because game programming is more than the graphics API, the hardware architecture and OS are also part of the w…

> They focus on one platform, because game programming is more than the graphics API, the hardware architecture and OS are also part of the whole equation, and what means being able to extract every single byte and ms for a few extra FPS.

Not according to experts who actually work on cross platform games.

> A publisher that targets PC, XBOX, PS4 and Nintendo has already by definition supported 4 graphical APIs

That's exactly the point. You can't claim they are happy about spending x4 times more on supporting their engine on each system and have a very limited ability to share code. It's always extra costs. They do it because vendors of those walled gardens limit developers' choice and artificially force incompatible APIs on them.

> you can shout to the windmills how much bad lock-in and duplication of efforts are

They are bad and everyone knows it.

> no one will care

Those who care more, work on breaking that lock-in. See what Oxide Games developers have to say about this lock-in idiocy, and don't claim they aren't professionals.

Re: Windows game developer about porting to and using OS X

#192

Post by exprx »

exprx wrote: post #158
jblow wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... And those developers are generally right. I would use SDL in Linux ports of things because it is the closest to a reasonable native API on Linux (which says more about Linux than SDL actually). But even having done so I would then use native APIs in Windows, OSX, etc. If your standard of quality is high enough, it won't really be possible to reach it using a blanket API like SDL everywhere.

Nothing on the post above is even remotely accurate.

So much explained disagreement.. not?

Re: Windows game developer about porting to and using OS X

#193

Post by vardump »

targaf wrote: post #137
vardump wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> XCode crashes maybe once or twice a week for me. VC doesn't. Only once per week? Lucky you. Sometimes XCode has crashed for me several times per hour. Sometimes it works for a while. Sigh Apple [1]. The fact XCode uses clang as a compiler absolutely rocks. That said, Visual Studio 2012 just crashed earlier. I guess it was some bug in Window splitting or something, did some unusual things with that just before the c…

Try using the left usb port. I have the same MBP and while the it'll drop anything on the right one that's more intensive than a flash drive, the left one has no such issues. Lot of reports of the same "solution" working floating around.

Left USB3-port seems to work if I also remove SD card from the reader. Interesting.

Re: Windows game developer about porting to and using OS X

#194

Post by lhecker »

citruspi wrote: post #63
lhecker wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal experience: Visual Studio feels a lot more "enterprise-y" than Xcode and offers a lot more advanced features and tools on pretty much all fronts, especially in the UI (e.g.: Xcode doesn't even have file tabs, but sth. I'd describe as big "whole-UI-tabs"). But... Xcode has llvm. This compiler and it's tools (i.e. the analyzer, debugger, etc.) just make VS' compiler look like it's from the 90s. Really. -> H…

> Xcode doesn't even have file tabs, but sth. I'd describe as big "whole-UI-tabs" Preferences → Navigation → Double Click Navigation → Uses Separate Tab

Oh... Thanks! :)

Re: Windows game developer about porting to and using OS X

#195

Post by pjmlp »

shmerl wrote: post #191
pjmlp wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Simple example - most legacy publishers don't even release games for multiple APIs (such as OpenGL), because of costs. I.e. they are hostages of lock-in. That exactly demonstrates the issue above, and the fact that it has a direct impact. It is not how it works in the industry. They focus on one platform, because game programming is more than the graphics API, the hardware architecture and OS are also part of the w…

> They focus on one platform, because game programming is more than the graphics API, the hardware architecture and OS are also part of the whole equation, and what means being able to extract every single byte and ms for a few extra FPS. Not according to experts who actually work on cross platform games. > A publisher that targets PC, XBOX, PS4 and Nintendo has already by definition supported 4 graphical APIs That's…

Apparently they love DX12,

http://www.oxidegames.com/2015/08/16/the-birth-of-a-new-api/

And how it improves the user experience of their games.

Once more, grasp the culture of the video game industry.

Re: Windows game developer about porting to and using OS X

#196

Post by shmerl »

pjmlp wrote: post #195
shmerl wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They focus on one platform, because game programming is more than the graphics API, the hardware architecture and OS are also part of the whole equation, and what means being able to extract every single byte and ms for a few extra FPS. Not according to experts who actually work on cross platform games. > A publisher that targets PC, XBOX, PS4 and Nintendo has already by definition supported 4 graphical APIs That's…

Apparently they love DX12, http://www.oxidegames.com/2015/08/16/the-birth-of-a-new-api/ And how it improves the user experience of their games. Once more, grasp the culture of the video game industry.

At the same time they strongly criticized DX12 for being MS only and said it's necessary to have a cross platform solution (i.e. Vulkan). Grasp the simple fact that no one likes lock-in except for crooks.

Re: Windows game developer about porting to and using OS X

#197

Post by danvideo »

knodi123 wrote: post #119
farresito wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This always happens to me with passwords. I have trouble remembering some passwords. Yet, when I'm in front of the page and I actually need to get in, either I lose some focus and let my unconsciousness do the work or I won't get it right.

I was trying to share my banking passwords with my wife ("in case of emergency" kind of stuff), and I was forced to admit that I had no idea what my bank password was, even though I log into it several times a week. I had to open a word processor and type my username and password for her all at once. The act of typing my username allowed the password to pop into my memory.

I tend to think it's a good thing that I don't actually know my bank passwords - a password manager is much simpler. Having strong passwords for all different banks is a piece of cake when you don't have to remember them.

Re: Windows game developer about porting to and using OS X

#198

Post by jokoon »

sounds wrote: post #135
jokoon wrote: post #131

Well I sold my macbook pro because I wasn't able to build my ogre project properly. For years. Also there was some OIS (not iOS, OIS) input issue. It comes from apple force feeding Cocoa into opengl apps, or something like that, which can only be remedied by using some SDL hack. Anyway, I don't really care anymore, I bought a thinkpad instead. Cocoa is just something I just can't even. My experience has been pretty d…

Working through the Ogre issues on OS X is like a rite of passage, I thought? I tried multiple times to contribute OS X fixes to the Ogre code base. They're not hard things -- 1. Use SDL not OIS. 2. The symlinking is broken. 3. Link the frameworks properly. There was one more thing, I think. Just minor issues that probably have crept into the codebase because no one is able to contribute the fixes. It's Ogre. It's no…

Thought too. But in my opinion, an OS has larger responsibilities when it comes to improve inter compatibility, instead of breaking things to have developers who stay loyal and ending up with apple-exclusive software. I really wonder about the value objective C brings, especially since NextStep did not work as a project. You can't always put the fault on library devs.

What boggles my mind, is that OSX is an unix underneath, so I don't understand why it would do anything different and force developers to learn new habits. That's not how you attract devs. Apple has made an habit to break backward compatibility, something neither linux nor windows tend to do.

I think it's not so much to think that OS manufacturers should not to be different than their competition by separating even how their development tools work. The only objective of that is to have developers who stay loyal to apple because they can't have their app running on both windows and mac. Not to mention I had to re do everthing at each new XCode version.

So in the end, having my project run on both XCode and MSVC, was too much time lost, so I just sold that aging laptop. Apple is just so special, and I guess I was not good enough for that.

Re: Windows game developer about porting to and using OS X

#199

Post by BuckRogers »

ossreality wrote: post #38
lhecker wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal experience: Visual Studio feels a lot more "enterprise-y" than Xcode and offers a lot more advanced features and tools on pretty much all fronts, especially in the UI (e.g.: Xcode doesn't even have file tabs, but sth. I'd describe as big "whole-UI-tabs"). But... Xcode has llvm. This compiler and it's tools (i.e. the analyzer, debugger, etc.) just make VS' compiler look like it's from the 90s. Really. -> H…

LLVM may not remain a feature that only exists in one column soon. It's a brave new .NET world... LLILC is a thing (.NET frontend for LLVM). LLVM has a role in Android and iOS work in VS already and I think that role will only expand further. There's a lot of attention on .NET Native. Given that LLILC went from nothing to being able to build and JIT Roslyn in 6 months... Let's just say I have some speculation in mind…

Please do go on, if you will.

I'm primarily a Python guy and with the 2/3 split, I've had my eye on .Net Core to migrate my business platform to. Pretty much been looking to dump Python for anything over a line count of 500 and keep it that way. I'm open to any speculation as to where it's going because I'm finding the .Net platform to be more attractive than ever. A few years ago it was looking pretty sad but MS really turned it around and I'm interested in a permanent migration. I really can't find much, that I enjoy using, that approaches Python's broad use cases than C# on .Net. With dotNet Native and Xamarin, I'm very seriously considering the plunge.

Re: Windows game developer about porting to and using OS X

#200

Post by BuckRogers »

pjmlp wrote: post #189
shmerl wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Professionals, as in release AAA games. Term AAA is ambiguous. Please define it. If you mean publisher funded (a common meaning), then see above. If you mean big budget, then your remark about independent developers is invalid as well (there are independent studios with big budget games). Anyway, I don't see how any of that is related to professionalism. Funding method or budget size has nothing to do with it. > Of…

> Simple example - most legacy publishers don't even release games for multiple APIs (such as OpenGL), because of costs. I.e. they are hostages of lock-in. That exactly demonstrates the issue above, and the fact that it has a direct impact. It is not how it works in the industry. They focus on one platform, because game programming is more than the graphics API, the hardware architecture and OS are also part of the w…

>They focus on one platform, because game programming is more than the graphics API, the hardware architecture and OS are also part of the whole equation, and what means being able to extract every single byte and ms for a few extra FPS.

^ That is how I know you're BSing. I can assure you, while reading between the lines you seem to be very concerned with promoting Microsoft.. if you think game devs are extracting "every single byte and ms for a few FPS".. given the buggy, unoptimized nature of many games, you are quite the comedian.

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