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What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

nytimes.com

191–200 of 437 posts

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#191
post #166
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doing a google search of "top TV 2014" Hollywood has a history of being a canary in the coal mine when it comes to stereotypes...both good and bad. For example, when homosexuality started becoming more accepted in American culture one of the first signs were prominent gay sitcom characters.

> For example, when homosexuality started becoming more accepted in American culture one of the first signs were prominent gay sitcom characters. I suspect that was a cause, not an effect, of widening acceptance of homosexuality.

It's both - there's a feedback loop.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is this a problem First-order logic: if (A AND ~B -> ~C) AND C, then (~A OR B). The persistence of the gender gap in technology despite decades of effort to "fix" it is an annoying refutation of the blank-slate theory of human nature on which the entire worldview of many people, particularly gender activists, rests. In other words, if it's simultaneously true that tech is gender-imbalanced and that there is no…

In other words, correlation DOES imply causation right? And any evidence to the contrary is a conspiracy theory by the 'pundit class'. Gender bias towards a given domain is a generational problem, like racism or homophobia and so on. Changes do not happen overnight, and because they haven't happened over night does not imply that 'white or asian men are innately better at tech than the other 95% of the population'.

Do you think that in a fair world, it is necessarily the case that every profession is a microcosm of the population as a whole?

Let me ask a different way: in a world where no unjustice exists, is it possible for programming to be 80% men?

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#193
post #178

I don't get something. There seems to always has been a problem of diversity in tech. Yet US has done just ok with males (white and asian) doing this stuff. Ie better than anybody else in the world. Why is this a problem (something the writer - who is a literature professor, by the way) considers a given? Is there any proof that increased diversity has any effect (except employment opportunities for the otherwise und…

Your argument seems to be basically: is 2 really a bigger number than 1? We are 1 right now, and the rest of the world is less than 1, so isn't that proof that its better? Show me the studies that prove 2 is better than 1.

I imagine that to someone of your political persuasion, this is self evident. But humor someone who doesn't share your views and actually demonstrate (empirically for example) that you are right.

I personally don't care whether the geeks who work at a given tech firm are of particular gender or race, as long as they produce quality stuff.

I would care if someone couldn't get into the industry because they are X - but if these individuals don't want to - it's not something I consider a problem.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#194
post #178

I don't get something. There seems to always has been a problem of diversity in tech. Yet US has done just ok with males (white and asian) doing this stuff. Ie better than anybody else in the world. Why is this a problem (something the writer - who is a literature professor, by the way) considers a given? Is there any proof that increased diversity has any effect (except employment opportunities for the otherwise und…

Our society has agreed that if any specific subset of the population is being biased against its wishes to pursue a path, then this is an injustice that shall be remedied. Distinctions include but are not limited to race, gender, socioeconomic background or current status, geographic origin, sexual orientation, and preexisting medical conditions.

It is an implied social contract that forms the foundation of our modern American society, irrespective of functional necessities or efficiencies. Efficiencies are not the point here.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#195
post #178

I don't get something. There seems to always has been a problem of diversity in tech. Yet US has done just ok with males (white and asian) doing this stuff. Ie better than anybody else in the world. Why is this a problem (something the writer - who is a literature professor, by the way) considers a given? Is there any proof that increased diversity has any effect (except employment opportunities for the otherwise und…

Our society has agreed that if any specific subset of the population is being biased against its wishes to pursue a path, then this is an injustice that shall be remedied. Distinctions include but are not limited to race, gender, socioeconomic background or current status, geographic origin, sexual orientation, and preexisting medical conditions. It is an implied social contract that forms the foundation of our moder…

> against its wishes

That's the bone of contention here. Nobody is keeping women out of computer science; they're largely just preferring not to enter the field. The point of the article, echoed by many commentators over the past few years, is that it's a "problem" that women are largely staying out of computer science.

If you believe in the blank slate theory of human nature, of course it's a problem, because under this worldview, women's default preferences are the same as that of men, so some external factor must be pushing them away from computer science. The teach for this factor has become increasingly desperate the past few years: now we're down to Star Wars posters.

I believe it's more parsimonious to reject the blank slate theory and understand the world through the lens of innate differences in life preferences between genders, and that it's this innate difference that leads to different gender balances in various fields.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#196
post #5

We've known this for a while, it boils down to: barbies. Fixing this problem is really, really hard. Assuming I gave my daughters equal access to both barbies and chemistry kits, which would they choose? Kids want to fit in with their friends. Boy nerds get beaten up, girl nerds get ostracised. What does that lead to? The child choosing their gender stereotype (applies both ways) so that they can fit in. It's what th…

I believe that it likely begins at middle school or high school instead because this is the age an individual can more easily comprehend what computer engineering is actually all about. What I suspect is that generally speaking both men and women start out on equal footing in terms of having access to a computer to learn on and the capability to learn the craft. I suspect they are also on equal footing in terms of both feeling the same intellectual stimulation, challenge, rush, and sense of self-empowerment that comes after they've built their first program.

Unfortunately from that point on more male than female students go on to more fully grok programming. I believe this is because the hidden costs associated with pursuing the craft are unequal between the two genders. For either gender it can represent a 'ding' on their popularity scorecard so to speak, but the ding is felt far more profoundly for women. One can certainly debate why this is and of course it's possible to trace this phenomena historically back into the days of ancient greek culture and before.

My feeling on the matter personally though is that the cultural norms of highschoolers have simply not had time to adapt to the idea that "geek is sheik" because the sentiment has only existed (outside of hacker culture) for the last decade (and perhaps it's still only a thing in California). In addition to that there has never been a "female astronaut moment" for computer science, so to speak in terms of it breaking into the consciousness of the average teen. This may be a chicken/egg type problem.

I think this is shifting now, but my opinion is that the biases which effected how highschoolers were feeling 15 or 20 years ago about computer science are still skewing the hiring statistics today because there are far fewer women job applicants who have been doing this kind of programming work for 15 or 20+ years...

How many were programming BBS systems in ANSI C back before AOL was a thing, or how many were following along with the early web as the standards (things like CSS) were being flushed out and it's possibilities were being explored (intro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_B31nF3sU0&t=2m10s)

According to the statistics there are a lot more men who have been engaged in "Internet engineering" in one form or another for most of their life and this kind of multidisciplinary computer-science background can skew a hiring decision in their favor assuming both candidates are equally well versed with the most current technologies. Young programmers find ways to make up for the often times narrower scope of their experience (lack of a lisp beard) by being really good at the things that they specialize in, and by tracking more closely the cutting edge. I feel there are more women who are joining this cohort every day, but there are still not as many and it's a shame.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do companies do that? I've never experienced any embrace of "nerd culture" at any place I've worked.

Sure! Here's an example I'll ruefully draw from the last company I helped manage: all-hands offsites at local breweries.

I don't understand the connection between beer and nerd culture --- or masculine culture, actually, since plenty of women I know love beer.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll confirm this anecdotally. My sister was extremely good at math and science... until the end of middle school, when she started hanging out in earnest with her friends. Her friends thought that any intellectual interest was nerdy and stupid, and my sister acted accordingly. Now, the girl who was easily learning algebra in elementary school "just can't do math." I think that the big difference in STEM is that nerd…

There are hundreds of thousands of boys who excel at math and science until their bodies mature to the point where they become competitive at track or football. Unlike "hanging out with friends", a universal activity, extracurricular sports actually do conflict with early computer science exploration (they're a huge time sink, as any parent of a kid in a sport will attest). Meanwhile, sports draws in more boys than g…

I'm not sure sports are more of a time sink than a lot of kids would otherwise spend doing something mindless like watching TV or gaming. It's a couple of hours a day after school for practice and half a day on the weekend for a game (yes I have three kids in sports).

There are kids (and parents) who get totally invested in a sport with often unrealistic expectations of college scholarships or professional careers, but there are a lot who are also remain very academically focused and balanced. I know that many of the kids on my oldest son's high school teams went on to college in STEM fields so it's not an either/or.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other words, correlation DOES imply causation right? And any evidence to the contrary is a conspiracy theory by the 'pundit class'. Gender bias towards a given domain is a generational problem, like racism or homophobia and so on. Changes do not happen overnight, and because they haven't happened over night does not imply that 'white or asian men are innately better at tech than the other 95% of the population'.

Do you think that in a fair world, it is necessarily the case that every profession is a microcosm of the population as a whole? Let me ask a different way: in a world where no unjustice exists, is it possible for programming to be 80% men?

Programming is a purely intellectual activity, so I would argue that there is no gender or racial advantage one way or the other.

Contrast this with, for example, physical professions like professional basketball, where the faster ability to grow in fitness and strength, along with certain racial advantages with height or speed means the population tends to skew in one direction - enough so that creating separate leagues allows for fairer representation.

Software development is not like that. The very fact that the majority of programmers used to be women back when it started should be enough to show that current bias' are societal or fashion-based.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our society has agreed that if any specific subset of the population is being biased against its wishes to pursue a path, then this is an injustice that shall be remedied. Distinctions include but are not limited to race, gender, socioeconomic background or current status, geographic origin, sexual orientation, and preexisting medical conditions. It is an implied social contract that forms the foundation of our moder…

> against its wishes That's the bone of contention here. Nobody is keeping women out of computer science; they're largely just preferring not to enter the field. The point of the article, echoed by many commentators over the past few years, is that it's a "problem" that women are largely staying out of computer science. If you believe in the blank slate theory of human nature, of course it's a problem, because under…

Premise 1: There are some innate differences that obtain between people of different sexes.

Conclusion: The gender disparity in computer science is the result of innate differences between the sexes.

Seems legit...

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