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Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

nytimes.com

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Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#191

Post by [deleted] »

refurb wrote: post #189
toomuchtodo wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're recirculating exhaust back into the engine, you're able to attempt to reburn any fuel that wasn't burned on the first pass, while also exposing any emissions to higher temperatures on the second pass (higher temperatures = easier to break down when those emissions reach the emissions control system).

If you're recirculating exhaust back into the engine, you're able to attempt to reburn any fuel that wasn't burned on the first pass That's not what EGRs do. EGRs take exhaust, which is relatively inert (combustion having already taken place) and injects it into the combustion chamber to lower combustion temperatures . The reason you want low temperatures is that NOx (nitrogen oxides) form at high temperatures.

[deleted]

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#192

Post by refurb »

swang wrote: post #78
sbov wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caveat: if the punishment does not exceed the profit from cheating, it's not a punishment it's a cost of doing business.

See: Johnson & Johnson w/ their drug risperdal: $2 billion in penalties... $30 billion in sales. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/17/opinion/nicholas-kristof-w...

That's a poor comparison. Not all of the $30B in sales were fraudulent.

Actually, in order to come up with the $2B penalty, the gov't determines the number of fraudulent Rxs, then hits the manufacturer with triple damages (this is typical).

J&J would have been better off financially had they never committed the fraud they did.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#193

Post by toomuchtodo »

refurb wrote: post #189
toomuchtodo wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're recirculating exhaust back into the engine, you're able to attempt to reburn any fuel that wasn't burned on the first pass, while also exposing any emissions to higher temperatures on the second pass (higher temperatures = easier to break down when those emissions reach the emissions control system).

If you're recirculating exhaust back into the engine, you're able to attempt to reburn any fuel that wasn't burned on the first pass That's not what EGRs do. EGRs take exhaust, which is relatively inert (combustion having already taken place) and injects it into the combustion chamber to lower combustion temperatures . The reason you want low temperatures is that NOx (nitrogen oxides) form at high temperatures.

It appears I was mistaken!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas_recirculation

"In internal combustion engines, exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) is a nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions reduction technique used in petrol/gasoline and diesel engines. EGR works by recirculating a portion of an engine's exhaust gas back to the engine cylinders. This dilutes the O2 in the incoming air stream and provides gases inert to combustion to act as absorbents of combustion heat to reduce peak in-cylinder temperatures. NOx is produced in a narrow band of high cylinder temperatures and pressures.

In a gasoline engine, this inert exhaust displaces the amount of combustible matter in the cylinder. In a diesel engine, the exhaust gas replaces some of the excess oxygen in the pre-combustion mixture.[1] Because NOx forms primarily when a mixture of nitrogen and oxygen is subjected to high temperature, the lower combustion chamber temperatures caused by EGR reduces the amount of NOx the combustion generates (though at some loss of engine efficiency).[2] Gasses re-introduced from EGR systems will also contain near equilibrium concentrations of NOx and CO; the small fraction initially within the combustion chamber inhibits the total net production of these and other pollutants when sampled on a time average. Most modern engines now require exhaust gas recirculation to meet emissions standards."

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#194

Post by CamperBob2 »

McGlockenshire wrote: post #177
zardo wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I expect at the least they are going to get hit with the maximum administrative fine, 37,500 per vehicle.

That maths out to somewhere in the ballpark of eighteen billion dollars. In 2012, the EPA issued $252 million in fines, total. Kia & Hyundai were fined $300 million total in 2014. I don't see them hitting VW with eighteen billion. e: Eh, that might not be so unreasonable after all. In 2012, VW made about $28 billion in profit on $250 billion of sales.

If the cars can't pass smog testing without cheating, then they also need to be forced to buy each and every one of them back. $18 billion sounds reasonable to me. This needs to hurt.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#195

Post by CamperBob2 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #172
ryandrake wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California's CARB is the gestapo of car emissions. If anyone has the motivation, expertise, and evil disposition to detect this, it's the state of California. I've never lived in a state like this. Bi-yearly tailpipe sniffs and visual inspections. Even if your car's emissions are cleaner than their ridiculous requirements, they'll still fail your car if it has parts on it that are not stock. I ended up having to sell…

Very happy to hear CARB is working!

ryandrake's point was probably that his car is cleaner than necessary, but failing because of stupid, arbitrary rules imposed by CARB for no reason other than bureaucratic intransigence.

It's similar to the feeling I got when I waited in line for an hour to have my Miata smog-checked at a busy urban test station, and then choked on diesel exhaust from a dump truck when I made the mistake of driving away with the top down. CARB is the poster child for "Doing something just to say we're doing something."

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#196

Post by fauigerzigerk »

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #180
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're talking about how to punish not if. If you can punish a parent in a way that does not affect the child, surely that has to be preferred way of doing it.

So we accept differential treatment based on one's having kids? What happens if the better punishment from the kid's perspective is actually worse for the parent?

I think that courts do take individual circumstances into account and must be allowed to do so. I don't deny at all that it can be unfair, but I don't think inflexible rules like three-strikes sort of laws or draconian minimum sentences that take away the judge's wiggle room are any fairer.

A prison sentence for a parent is not just hurting the kid more, it's also much harsher on the parent. You're not only taking away their freedom, you're also taking away their kid. In effect, that is differential treatment as well. But I will admit that I'm not comfortable with this line of argument either.

The case of auto makers breaching environmental rules is much simpler though as a large fine that does not cause factory and dealership closures or price hikes is better in every imaginable way.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#197

Post by nradov »

swang wrote: post #97

I love the look/feel/drive of a VW, but I will never again own one. My parents bought a 2002 VW which I mostly drove and the maintenance costs were through the roof. There have been at least 3-4 recall notices, one time while parked on an incline, it rained and flooded the back of the car with water. When I went to VW, they said that I had to manually clean out some drainage underneath the car. How the hell am I goin…

Individual anecdotes don't mean much. You can find objective data on car reliability on TrueDelta and Long-Term Quality Index. Those aren't true random samples but still pretty useful.

http://www.truedelta.com/car-reliability

http://tradeinqualityindex.com/reports/Volkswagen.html

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#198

Post by draw_down »

If the ultimate and only resolution to this is that VW has to pay a fine, or other outgoing monies due to the recalls, in an amount that is not significant to the operation of their business, nobody should be surprised that this happened, nor question whether it can happen again.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#199

Post by toomuchtodo »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #195
toomuchtodo wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very happy to hear CARB is working!

ryandrake's point was probably that his car is cleaner than necessary, but failing because of stupid, arbitrary rules imposed by CARB for no reason other than bureaucratic intransigence. It's similar to the feeling I got when I waited in line for an hour to have my Miata smog-checked at a busy urban test station, and then choked on diesel exhaust from a dump truck when I made the mistake of driving away with the top…

Should we fault CARB though? They require more stringent emissions regulations due to California's geography, and both the federal government and automakers are rarely amiable to their needs.

With cars going electric, its a bit of a moot point, except for the part where pressure needs to be applied on heavy trucks now (hopefully pushing them to natural gas from diesel until energy storage catches up).

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#200

Post by mjt0229 »

joshrotenberg wrote: post #67
bpodgursky wrote: post #60

What actually incentivizes a customer to take their car to a shop to get this fixed though? It's not causing harm to individual car owners, and it's not like they can get collections agencies to sieze them. Seems like they're going to have trouble getting compliance here...

I've got a 2013 Golf TDI and was thinking about this as well. If it isn't a safety related recall, I'm not sure how you get people to comply aside from some other action related to, say, their next years registration (i.e. if your VIN doesn't have this fix applied, you can't reregister your car). Not sure if that's a thing, though. I'd personally plan to take my car in "real soon now" to get the fix.

I have a 2014 Jetta TDI, and the thing I'm wondering is what the cost of the fix will be - not to me in dollars, since it would be covered by the recall - but rather, will this affect my fuel economy or performance in some other way? I'm just trying to figure out why they don't have the cars running in this lower-emissions mode all the time.
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