Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#181

Post by kalleboo » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 6:27 AM UTC

gberger wrote: post #168

dotBen wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming they eventually win all the legal battles and drive all other taxi and taxi-like services out of business That's very unlikely to happen and I don't think anyone here at Uber sees the world as a zero-sum game as you portray it. Even in SF, the most mature Uber market, there are still plenty of cabs operating. Cabs offer a different service (street hails, fixed pricing etc) - which is why you can even hail a…

> which is why you can even hail a cab from the Uber app if you want How? Is this specific to SF? I've been there a couple times and never saw this option.

There are very differing options between cities and countries. This article shows a bunch of them: https://medium.com/@ImJasonLi/around-the-world-with-uber-124...

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#182

Post by wanderer2323 » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 6:56 AM UTC

balls187 wrote: post #172

jasonbarone wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But don't think you're safe there. If you have the slightest hesitation at all in your tonality, the driver will all of the sudden get a case of "I don't know that location, can you give me directions". I experienced that when I first moved here back to back one night because I didn't understand the "process" of getting a cab in New York. Point is, cabs are completely shady, and nearly all have horrible service. Sinc…

> It's unbelievable to me that people dislike Uber and think they're just some "scam" backed by venture capital. There is a flip side to that, as well. Uber has engaged in questionable tactics, and their drivers are from the same pool as Taxi drivers. I've had uber drivers accept the fare, then immediately cancel when they figured surge pricing will kick in. I've also had drivers not pick me up from my location, one…

"Uber's support staff is good, and any hint of poor performance results in a 1-star review"

This is roughly how the market "responded" (0) to Uber in Moscow - Yandex ("Russian Google") rolled out its Yandex Taxi service/app which provided Uber-like experience to user and integrated with taxi companies at the backend. Same experience same driver ratings etc - but on a legal platform. The prices are compatible with Uber too.

(0) I put "responded" in quotes here because Uber launched in Moscow a few years after Yandex Taxi.

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#183

Post by danieltillett » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 7:02 AM UTC

morgante wrote: post #176

danieltillett wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Again, how do you propose that a competitor would build a viably competitive network in an Uber city? I would pick mid-size markets and optimise for unit costs. I would settle on a single fuel efficient car model (or two) and then work on making my capital and servicing costs as low as possible. I would use trained and experienced employees and implement tracking technology to ensure that the drivers are polite, pro…

I don't think that's a viable strategy. If it were, Lyft would be successfully deploying it. Namely, I see 3 primary flaws: 1. A marginally lower price is not by itself enough to achieve market penetration. If it takes 5-10 minutes longer to get a ride on your platform (due to fewer drivers), I'm not going to use it—even if you are 20% cheaper (wiping out Uber's entire margin). 2. You're ignoring the pooling savings…

Namely, I see 3 primary flaws: 1. A marginally lower price is not by itself enough to achieve market penetration. If it takes 5-10 minutes longer to get a ride on your platform (due to fewer drivers), I'm not going to use it—even if you are 20% cheaper (wiping out Uber's entire margin).

I think you have assumed that I would not have as many drivers on the road as Uber. I would have as many or more - hence the need to go after mid-size markets to begin with. The time for the driver to turn up with my service would be the same or better than Uber.

2. You're ignoring the pooling savings which come from being able to easily coordinate shared rides due to a huge installed rider base.

I am not ignoring it. If there is demand for this service and I have as many cars on the road as Uber then I can offer the same pool service. I will still have the same unit cost advantage.

3. Uber can spend you into the ground. They have a massive war chest and continued huge revenue from their mature markets—enough to undercut you until you run out of oxygen. The biggest flaw of these 3 is that I just don't think price alone is sufficient to overcome network effects. If it were, the $100+ vouchers which I see also-ran competitors giving out would have made a dent in Uber's market share.

If you limit the size of the markets you go after then there is a limit to what even Uber can spend trying to kill you. You just need to be able sustain any loss over the length of time that you think Uber can fight you for. The key to success here is have enough resources to survive the level of damage anyone can throw at you. Personally I would hold off until Uber just goes public when they can’t afford to waste as much money anymore.

More fundamentally the reason none of Uber’s competitors like Lyft (or even Uber itself) has pursued this model is that you can’t sustain it at the capital cost that VCs demand. It is a model which will only be pursued by businesses with a low cost of capital in much the same way the container shipping industry is run. The problem for Uber long term is once a business enters with this model they will be hard to fight.

I have to say these discussions are lots of fun :)

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#184

Post by jedrek » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 7:05 AM UTC

roymurdock wrote: post #102

danieltillett wrote: post #65

The thing about Uber I don’t understand is how they are going to defend their monopoly once they acquire it. Assuming they eventually win all the legal battles and drive all other taxi and taxi-like services out of business then how are they going to stop anyone else from entering their market? Each transport market is effectively isolated (you don’t hail a driver from SF to get around NYC). This means any new entran…

What do you consider "monopoly profits?" As of the 2013 leak, Uber was grossing $1bn in revenue [1]. Uber takes a 20% cut from each transaction, and has an extremely lean cost structure - drivers pay for gas, insurance, amortize vehicles, don't get any benefits, etc. Even if we assume costs to be 10% of revenue (which they aren't), Uber still would have earned a gross profit of $100m in 2013. Judging by Uber's curren…

I don't think you realize how Uber moves into new territory: tons of free ride codes (maybe 40% of my rides have been unsubsidized); special event codes; subsidised events (free transportation to voting places last election here); cash payouts and bonuses for drivers. It's by no means lean.

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#185

Post by collyw » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 7:09 AM UTC

Hominem wrote: post #104

jasonbarone wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But don't think you're safe there. If you have the slightest hesitation at all in your tonality, the driver will all of the sudden get a case of "I don't know that location, can you give me directions". I experienced that when I first moved here back to back one night because I didn't understand the "process" of getting a cab in New York. Point is, cabs are completely shady, and nearly all have horrible service. Sinc…

Agreed. I'm native, born and raised, and learned about "gypsy cabs", "car service" and how to hail a yellow cab back when yellow cabs still had "jump seats". Uber has democratized what affluent people have always known, money can buy anything, including someone to drive you somewhere.

I would say monopolized rather then democratized.

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#186

Post by kalleboo » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 7:24 AM UTC

seizethecheese wrote: post #72

sampo wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people might take a loan to buy a car to drive Uber?

To get a car loan you need employment history and decent credit. While some folks that fit this category are struggling, it's not exactly the profile of an exploited class.

Uber push their own financing program to recruit drivers (or to get drivers to update their cars). They use subprime lenders and claim that even people with poor credit are eligible https://get.uber.com/cl/financing/

If you're recruited by Uber, enter into a loan, and then Uber drops the rates to a level where you're not profitable, that can be a problem. There are a bunch of stories of this kind, eg: http://www.marketplace.org/topics/tech/uber-drivers-struggle... http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/5/27/uber-promote...

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#187

Post by gfodor » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 7:26 AM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #75

arthurcolle wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When do you drop the tidbit of information related to the whole reason you got in? /just moved to NYC

After you're inside and the door is closed. This is the only way you can get to the airport during the "shift change" that's right around PM rush hour. Nobody will take you there if you tell them you want to go there. That said the new Q70 bus from Jackson Heights (7/E/F/M/R) is quite efficient, and I don't bother with cabs anymore. Not worth paying someone $40 to bitch and moan about going to the airport when the MT…

I remember I once needed to catch a cab to the airport at this time, and I was lugging a big ass suitcase. Knowing full well that standing on the side of the road with that suitcase, a cabby would never stop, I hit it behind a tree. I hailed the cab, open the passenger door, then said "one sec", ran and grabbed the bag and dragged it into the back seat with me. Oh man, was he pissed.

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#188

Post by icebraining » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 7:54 AM UTC

beatpanda wrote: post #13

marssaxman wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When their business model is only illegal due to a corrupt, inefficient, entrenched monopoly which is just as hostile to its customers as its employees, yes, it is indeed a pleasure to watch someone take on the machine and win.

Where "winning" is the normalization of precarious labor where the employee assumes all risk and somehow makes even less money than they did in "the machine". Oh, but you got to the club a little faster. Baller, bro.

Oh, bullshit, as if taxi drivers weren't already contractors without any benefits. Hell, they had to pay to work, by renting a medallion from millionaires like Evgeny Freidman, who can actually afford to buy them. Uber only takes a cut if you actually make money.

Here's an article from way before Uber came around: "Driving a Taxi, Difficult in Best of Times, Gets Tougher" - http://www.nytimes.com/1995/04/09/nyregion/driving-a-taxi-di...

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#189

Post by icebraining » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 7:57 AM UTC

beatpanda wrote: post #95

marssaxman wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I make a point of asking Uber and Lyft drivers how they like it. Lyft drivers universally love it. Uber drivers are less enthusiastic on the whole, but they have generally said it's better than working as a cab driver. I've since stopped using Uber since it's hard to feel comfortable about their business practices, but they're still better than the taxi monopolies and I'm happy to see them pursuing the fight and clea…

The individual choices of Uber drivers aren't what I'm concerned about. I'm concerned about the overall normalization of precarious labor that benefits the owners of capital and hurts the people doing the work. It starts to hurt workers everywhere if everyone gets used to accepting all of the risk of employment, not having access to workers comp or unemployment insurance, etc etc. And given the kind of benefits packa…

Taxi drivers were already precarious workers, with no benefits. Uber changed nothing in that regard.

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#190

Post by icebraining » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 8:03 AM UTC

ajays wrote: post #163

Services like Uber definitely need some regulation. I drove from downtown SF to the Castro this evening, and witnessed 4 separate incidents of Uber drivers being reckless and/or discourteous. Things like: driver stopped in the leftmost lane, at a green light, because he suddenly decided that he wants to turn right instead of left; driver stopped in the right lane to pick up passenger, when he could have just stood in…

We have regulations for that, it's called "traffic law". The problem is enforcement, not the lack of rules.