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How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

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181–190 of 297 posts

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A large part of the problem is the failure to distinguish between the aggregate and the individual. For the sake of argument let's say that the population of individuals who would make good engineers is 60% male and 40% female. From an aggregate level that's a huge difference. Once you gather enough of people that statistical inferences can be made, the difference becomes obvious. In a classroom, for instance. But at…

That really is the crux of the matter. Everyone should be given an equal chance with no prejudice, and then if population differences still emerge, that's OK. Unfortunately there isn't much room for this middle ground. People who want to acknowledge sex difference want to use sex as a filter, e.g. "no women in combat roles." People who want to give everybody a chance also want to even things out, e.g. "Allow women in…

> Everyone should be given an equal chance with no prejudice,

Agreed. But the way it tends to work is that if (say) 60% of all engineers are men and the rest are women, then a man more closely fits the idea of an engineer that those people who are in charge of giving the chances have in mind, and so they're more likely to prefer a man to a woman.

You sort of run into this chicken/egg problem though: are women underrepresented in engineering because of what I described above (bad), or do they actually have equal opportunities and simply aren't choosing to become engineers (okay), OR do they actually have equal opportunities and are simply not choosing to be engineers just because the profession currently comprises mostly men and they feel discouraged when they see that, even though they're otherwise interested (bad), or etc. etc.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also the eugenicist argument that the undesirables shouldn't be permitted to procreate. For example, Margaret Sanger didn't want to round up people and exterminate them but she did want to keep them from reproducing.

Given that procreation requires one man and one woman to participate, it's going to be really hard to practice eugenics based on genetic differences between the sexes.

Have you ever heard of sex-selective abortions?

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#183

The six primary programmers of ENIAC were all women: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENIAC . Can we conclude, then, taking that as our sample, that programming is naturally "women's work"? If the preponderance of women in programming at that time was just a fluke then it's not unimaginable that the preponderance of men in programming at this time is also a fluke.

That's a misleading trope. The semantics of "programmer" now and then are not a fair comparison. There is now and was then a disparity in the gender distribution of "technically hard" jobs.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, no. When you pick out an individual there's still a 60% chance than one is better than the other given no other information than their sex. That's how statistics works. But I agree that it's better not to make the prejudgement at all. The problem is that there are many things that are true in the aggregate but we can't acknowledge them because we are scared of demotivating people. Is that the best we can do…

That is not how statistics works. This is how you reverse a conditional probability (Bayes's Rule): P(B|A) = P(A|B) * P(B) / P(A) If A is "female" and ~A is "male", and B is "good engineer", then what we know , including ancestor post's assumption, is this: P(A|B) = 0.4 (the population of known-good engineers is 40% female) P(A) = 0.5 (the population as a whole is 50% female) We can further assume, arbitrarily, that…

Thanks for presenting this so clearly. However, note that, as you show in this scenario, males are, on a relative basis, 50% more likely than females to be good engineers, knowing nothing else about them other than gender (P(B|~A) = 1.5 * P(B|A)). While the absolute probabilities (and difference in probabilities) are small, the relative improvement in classification error rate attributable to knowing the person's gender could very well mean that gender is still a useful feature to include (among many others! it's not so useful on its own, as you note) in a classifier for good engineers.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#185

I understand a lot of HNers and redditors believe race and gender are not purely social constructs. This is a contentious topic but I really appreciate Neil DeGrasse Tyson's comment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inz1sdhsMCU

I wish I could up vote this more!

For those who don't have the three minutes, the "punchline" is: "I know those forces are real, and I had to survive them in order to get where I am today. So before we start talking about genetic differences, you gotta come up with a system where there's equal opportunity, then we can have that conversation."

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#186
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about murdering people. The problem is, if you support policies that disadvantage people based on their genetics, you can gradually dehumanize those people. The (real) disadvantages of that outweigh the (supposed) advantages.

OK, but the gulf between that and "there is some genetic differences between the sexes" is still so large that you'd need a powerful telescope to see from one to the other.

And people with sexist and racist tendencies have those telescopes glued to their face.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A large part of the problem is the failure to distinguish between the aggregate and the individual. For the sake of argument let's say that the population of individuals who would make good engineers is 60% male and 40% female. From an aggregate level that's a huge difference. Once you gather enough of people that statistical inferences can be made, the difference becomes obvious. In a classroom, for instance. But at…

That really is the crux of the matter. Everyone should be given an equal chance with no prejudice, and then if population differences still emerge, that's OK. Unfortunately there isn't much room for this middle ground. People who want to acknowledge sex difference want to use sex as a filter, e.g. "no women in combat roles." People who want to give everybody a chance also want to even things out, e.g. "Allow women in…

> Unfortunately there isn't much room for this middle ground. People who want to acknowledge sex difference want to use sex as a filter, e.g. "no women in combat roles." People who want to give everybody a chance also want to even things out, e.g. "Allow women in combat roles, and lower the standards for women so they have just as much of a chance as men have."

Actually, I would say the vast majority of people not currently writing a post on an internet forum fall in some middle ground there. Like, the vast, vast majority.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Her work is critical of various pillars of gender science, and most definitely does not refrain from tackling the "Greater Male Variability" hypothesis that gets so much mileage these days. One such excerpt: > In a Science study of over 7 million United States schoolchildren, Janet Hyde and her team found that across grade levels and states, boys were modestly more variable than girls. Yet when they looked at the dat…

This analysis ignores both the (1) base rate, and (2) practice effect. The problem with using gender-neutral percentiles is that the proportion of males and females may not be 1:1. So, even if the percentage of women in the 99th percentile is higher than that of men, men could actually be more likely to be in the 99th percentile than women. That is, they found p(women | 99th) / p(men | 99th) whereas they're claiming…

> Regarding the second, it could be that the women were studying more, and thus not represent a genetic trait. In order to settle whether differences are genetic, you would have to compare performance from the same amount of effort.

I think this is an important objection, but you stop far shy of its true implication. If just studying more would skew the results, then you cannot reasonably say that the method used has any significant power to detect the influence genetic traits.

What is tested in a standardised test is arguably the combined effect of societal environment and genes, and considering that the field of the interaction between gene expression and the host environment (Epigenetics) is only just starting, even the genetic component might not be some static contribution.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#189
post #185

I understand a lot of HNers and redditors believe race and gender are not purely social constructs. This is a contentious topic but I really appreciate Neil DeGrasse Tyson's comment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inz1sdhsMCU

I wish I could up vote this more! For those who don't have the three minutes, the "punchline" is: "I know those forces are real, and I had to survive them in order to get where I am today. So before we start talking about genetic differences, you gotta come up with a system where there's equal opportunity, then we can have that conversation."

The counter is this happened a few decades ago and these forces are no longer present or diminished.

I agree things are better but they are still a factor. Someone just called Asians robotic in front of me the other day. Had to educate him on stereotypes. :/

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#190
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that while on average there are significant differences between men and women, the individual variation within men and within women is so much larger than these sex-based differences that sex is not a good predictor for behavior in the majority of the cases.

It depends on the difference. For grip strength, the median male is approximately equivalent to an elite female athlete.

I was thinking more about behavioral differences. For physical things like strength or height there is a very noticeable difference between the sexes.
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