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Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

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181–190 of 326 posts

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#181
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Maintain order?" After the violence and racism, a big problem with police is the crappy solution rates to violent and serious property crimes. The Drug War just masks that lack of effectiveness.

Is it your contention that the black cops in Baltimore are racist against black people?

Yes.

Is your contention that the obvious irony of that situation renders it impossible?

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#182
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, a substantial (and potentially growing) segment of the population doesn't agree with you. If racism is _the_ problem, why does it produce perfectly antipodal outcomes for different "people of color"? i.e. Asians are economically ascendant (surpassing whites on most metric), while blacks, well... you get the idea. Rubbing the amulet of "structural racism" so much has entirely debased the term.

Are you really equating the plight and histories of Asian-Americans and African-Americans in America over the past 3 centuries? You can do that with a straight face? Hint: one history includes codified discrimination until ~50 years ago and legal enslavement until ~150 years ago and the other one doesn't. Well, I'll give you that Asian Americans faced codified discrimination into the 20th century, but don't overlook…

I must point out that, by insisting on tying this to race, this discussion has quickly degenerated into "Who's been discriminated against the most?" which has exactly nothing to do with whether or not the criminal justice system in general is screwed up. Most all of us agree that something must be done. Do you want to gather together to fix it, or spend time in endless identity politics? I mean, even if you're "right", Who cares? Isn't the goal to make a change for the better?

Quod Erat Demondstrandum.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#183
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll agree that the drug war is out of control and as a "cure" it's worse than the disease. But people are not being locked up just because they are black, or poor. They are committing crimes, and pleading or being found guilty. The problem I have with pieces like the original article are that they are making it sound like we are engaging in a Gestapo-like rounding up of large numbers of minorities for no reason and…

> The problem I have with pieces like the original article are that they are making it sound like we are engaging in a Gestapo-like rounding up of large numbers of minorities for no reason and throwing them in jail. The reason people are "making it sound like that" is because that's actually what's happening. Freddy Gray was plucked from a sidewalk, detained, and then killed, for literally no lawful reason. The conte…

I do believe ams6110's post have some merits.

If you grow up in the ghetto with role models largely being gang members and most your friends have been or are going to jail, it's difficult to grow into a mentality that value education and achievement. It just happens due to historical reasons, especially racism, majority of the ghetto are blacks. This actually perpetuate the unspoken racism, where people consciously or unconsciously associate black people with all the bad things happening in ghetto.

As a counter example, Asian Americans were also highly discriminated against in the past century, immigration from Asia were barred, those who were here cannot acquire citizenship, cannot own land, etc etc. Asians were generally viewed as poor uneducated labours, not too different from blacks. But today Asians are hardly viewed as that, largely thanks to large influx of educated and hard working Asian immigrants in recent years (due to immigration law preference), who changed the public perception of Asians, lifted Asian neighbourhoods from ghetto status and gave positive role model and connections to poor Asian kids (local or immigrants).

Conclusion? Focusing on "helping" visible minority actually reinforce the perception that certain ethnic groups need help. What we need to focus on instead, is to help those in need of help, without regards to skin colors.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#184
post #176
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem I have with pieces like the original article are that they are making it sound like we are engaging in a Gestapo-like rounding up of large numbers of minorities for no reason and throwing them in jail. The reason people are "making it sound like that" is because that's actually what's happening. Freddy Gray was plucked from a sidewalk, detained, and then killed, for literally no lawful reason. The conte…

Yes these things happen. They should not happen. But they happen in most counties --even homogenous countries. Also, people don't get killed like this everyday, these are exceptions, not acceptable exceptions, but its also not routine as you make it out to be. The problem is economic and cultural (we allow for guns) so the police take maximum caution, and given the police are the only expression of government in some…

> Yes these things happen. They should not happen. But they happen in most counties --even homogenous countries.

What homogenous countries with a comparable level of economic wealth have situations that even remotely resemble our mass incarceration and drug war policies?

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The drug war is a direct consequence of the Warren Court reforms of the 1960s. Equal Protection and Disparate Impact made illegal many local laws and policing methods that had worked to maintain order. Prosecutors needed new tools to get criminals behind bars, hence the war on drugs.

I don't think I've heard this theory before. Can you flesh it out a little bit please?

It's not just the Warren Court, the other big problem is witness intimidation and the "don't snitch" ethic makes it very hard to convict people for murder, so drug cases are used as a proxy.

From "Ghettoside: A True Story of Murder in America":

-----------

This was how Coughlin did his job on many a night. Coughlin couldn’t do much about all the shooters in Southeast who got away with it. But he could enforce drug laws, gang injunctions, and parole and probation terms relatively easily just by driving around and making “good obs”— good observations, cop lingo for catching, at a glance, a bulge under a shirt, a furtive motion of hands. A chase might ensue, and sometimes ended with the cops shutting down whole neighborhoods as the LAPD “airship,” or helicopter, thumped overhead. Coughlin took extra risks to get guns— this was the gold standard.

Coughlin’s methods were guaranteed to look like straight harassment to those on the receiving end. After all, how important was a bag of marijuana in a place where so many people were dying? But Coughlin’s motivation wasn’t to juke stats, boost his department “rating,” or antagonize the neighborhood’s young men. He had seen the Monster, and his conscience demanded that he do something. So he used what discretion he had to compensate for the state’s lack of vigor in response to murder and assault.

This practice of using “proxy crimes” to substitute for more difficult and expensive investigations was widespread in American law enforcement. The legal scholar William J. Stuntz singled it out as a particularly damaging trend of recent decades. In California, proxy justice had transformed enforcement of parole and probation into a kind of shadow legal system, sparing the state the trouble of expensive prosecutions. State prisons, already saddled with sick and elderly inmates, were all the more crammed as a result.

But in the squad rooms of Southeast station, cops insisted that desperate measures were called for. They would hear the name of a shooter, only to find they couldn’t “put a case” on him because no witnesses would testify. So they would write a narcotics warrant— or catch him dirty. “We can put them in jail for drugs a lot easier than on an assault. No one is going to give us information on an assault,” explained Lou Leiker, who ran the detective table in Southeast in the early aughts. To them, proxy justice represented a principled stand against violence. It was like a personalized imposition of martial law.

Leovy, Jill (2015-01-27). Ghettoside: A True Story of Murder in America (pp. 140-141). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#186
post #48

There's all this discussion of these issues, which relate to racism, economic issues, police brutality, crime, etc. They seem complicated and nuanced and people throw their hands up and say well what can we do. The answer to that question is actually so simple you can say it in four words: End the drug war. Someone far more eloquent than me, The Wire creator David Simon, can flesh that out a little: http://www.washin…

I'll agree that the drug war is out of control and as a "cure" it's worse than the disease. But people are not being locked up just because they are black, or poor. They are committing crimes, and pleading or being found guilty. The problem I have with pieces like the original article are that they are making it sound like we are engaging in a Gestapo-like rounding up of large numbers of minorities for no reason and…

> They are committing crimes

If you think drug trading and consumption is a crime, you're part of the problem.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#187
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The drug war is a symptom of something more basic: Americans lack compassion." Really? http://www.nptrust.org/philanthropic-resources/charitable-gi...

This brings to mind the most famous quote from America's Greatest Poet: "Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes."

America and Americans (myself included) are full of inconsistencies and contradictions, but then I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a country that couldn't be described similarly to some degree.

My point is that I take issue with Americans being painted with a big, wide brush of "compassionless" when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Is there perhaps less compassion or concern (in general) directed towards criminals or individuals who are perceived to have engaged in criminal activities, here in the United States? Probably. But implying that such mindset reveals a lack of compassion in toto is ignorant.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I've heard this theory before. Can you flesh it out a little bit please?

It's not just the Warren Court, the other big problem is witness intimidation and the "don't snitch" ethic makes it very hard to convict people for murder, so drug cases are used as a proxy. From "Ghettoside: A True Story of Murder in America": ----------- This was how Coughlin did his job on many a night. Coughlin couldn’t do much about all the shooters in Southeast who got away with it. But he could enforce drug la…

An old story - the gangsters of Chicago were eventually caught on tax evasion. There's some real value to this practice - after all, what ethical problem is there in arresting someone for one crime vs another, if they are guilty of both?

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#189
post #48

There's all this discussion of these issues, which relate to racism, economic issues, police brutality, crime, etc. They seem complicated and nuanced and people throw their hands up and say well what can we do. The answer to that question is actually so simple you can say it in four words: End the drug war. Someone far more eloquent than me, The Wire creator David Simon, can flesh that out a little: http://www.washin…

I'll agree that the drug war is out of control and as a "cure" it's worse than the disease. But people are not being locked up just because they are black, or poor. They are committing crimes, and pleading or being found guilty. The problem I have with pieces like the original article are that they are making it sound like we are engaging in a Gestapo-like rounding up of large numbers of minorities for no reason and…

> But people are not being locked up just because they are black,

You're ignoring the fact that black people are more likely than white people to be arrested for minor crime; they're more likely to get prison time for similar crimes; etc.

> or poor.

Ferguson etc showed us that small towns used minor traffic violations as a revenue stream. Someone would have a minor, small, traffic violation and get a fine for it. They would then have to decide between taking time off work to pay he fine (and thus lose their job) or go to pay the fine, if they can pay the fine by the time they have too.

Because many people can't afford to pay the fine they end up in jail.

That's pretty much putting people in jail for being poor, and the US does it a lot.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#190
post #48

There's all this discussion of these issues, which relate to racism, economic issues, police brutality, crime, etc. They seem complicated and nuanced and people throw their hands up and say well what can we do. The answer to that question is actually so simple you can say it in four words: End the drug war. Someone far more eloquent than me, The Wire creator David Simon, can flesh that out a little: http://www.washin…

This is not a race issue. This is an inner city culture problem. Ending the drug war is a first step. But we still have to give these kids something to do. Pay them to go to school.
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