Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 262 posts

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#181

Post by FeeTinesAMady »

jkaunisv1 wrote: post #49
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may be on to something there. I wonder, however, how people are going to reconcile what the government is doing now with all of those previous works of fiction? It's going to have to add up to something -- a narrative must be formed. Were those just the halcyon days of yore? And now we've somehow "grown up" to face the realities of a scary world? Even more troubling, people are people, and when this is seriously…

Um, I really don't think it's at East German Stasi-levels. Known dissidents were gaslighted, had objects in their homes moved around, and had informants reporting on them in their apartment buildings/family/workplace. It's bad, it's dystopian, but it doesn't seem to be THAT bad yet.

The FBI does that. They've done it since J. Edgar Hoover. They did it to Martin Luther King.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#182

Post by jacquesm »

superuser2 wrote: post #142
wahsd wrote: post #103

Can we please stop acting like the USA is somehow a "good guy" anymore? We have to realize that the authoritarian demons have the battering ram at the door and I really don't want to find out what happens when the USA turns into an authoritarian militaristic regime. We're way more than half way there already and people support it. Our very own government is a threat to us all, or at least those who will find themselv…

Do you read the news? Because here are some things that other states are up to that we aren't (at least, not in this decade): - Systematic execution for the crime of belonging to a particular ethnic group or religion - Open and openly arbitrary disappearing, detention, and torture of intellectuals for the crime of writing articles critical of state-sponsored religious and political doctrine - Use of force against peo…

You don't get to perpetrate your crimes because others are doing worse things. All crimes are reprehensible some more than others but no perpetrator of any crime gets off (or should get off) by pointing to others that do worse things.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#183

Post by jacquesm »

enraged_camel wrote: post #170
superuser2 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you read the news? Because here are some things that other states are up to that we aren't (at least, not in this decade): - Systematic execution for the crime of belonging to a particular ethnic group or religion - Open and openly arbitrary disappearing, detention, and torture of intellectuals for the crime of writing articles critical of state-sponsored religious and political doctrine - Use of force against peo…

>>HOWEVER, HN sounds downright ridiculous when it declares that being listed in a database is comparable to being summarily executed for criticizing state religion. Here's the thing: countries can transition into totalitarianism quickly. 1930 Germany was very, very different than 1940 Germany. Hitler's rise to power happened in the blink of an eye, before most people understood what was happening. This is why "oh, be…

> This is why "oh, being listed in a database is nowhere as bad as being summarily executed"

And the one can lead to the other.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#184

Post by JetSpiegel »

woodman wrote: post #160
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is secret about a moat, electrified fence or a stated policy of mutual assured destruction? Normal people don't have a moat. A major reason that e.g. home invasions are risky (and thus are deterred) is that the criminal doesn't know when the mark or the neighbors will be away from home, what security may be in place or whether there is anything worth stealing. If you put that information on the internet for an…

What is more likely: I was suggesting that people secure their homes with a moat; or I was demonstrating that, contrary to the post I was responding to, not all security relies upon obscurity?

Most people can't have moats, they don't live in detached houses. Apartments and high rises are much more common, moats don't work there.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#185

Post by awjr »

In the UK, there is something called the 'ring of steel' around Birmingham. In effect all UK motorways and most main routes have ANPR on them. I would expect as costs decline, eventually most street light systems will be 'upgraded' to have ANPR.

I am surprised that a consumer ANPR solution isn't on the market.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#186

Post by mike_hearn »

superuser2 wrote: post #142
wahsd wrote: post #103

Can we please stop acting like the USA is somehow a "good guy" anymore? We have to realize that the authoritarian demons have the battering ram at the door and I really don't want to find out what happens when the USA turns into an authoritarian militaristic regime. We're way more than half way there already and people support it. Our very own government is a threat to us all, or at least those who will find themselv…

Do you read the news? Because here are some things that other states are up to that we aren't (at least, not in this decade): - Systematic execution for the crime of belonging to a particular ethnic group or religion - Open and openly arbitrary disappearing, detention, and torture of intellectuals for the crime of writing articles critical of state-sponsored religious and political doctrine - Use of force against peo…

Open and openly arbitrary disappearing, detention, and torture of intellectuals for the crime of writing articles critical of state-sponsored religious and political doctrine

Al-Awlaki? He was not accused of killing anyone himself, but got drone striked for writing terrorist propaganda. So did his son (for having Al-Awlaki as a father, no less). That seems like a pretty close fit.

Corruption to a degree that renders the public health infrastructure so dysfunctional that tens of thousands of people die needlessly

That's a funny example. Most people in western non-US countries would say the US meets this definition handily.

All that said, your point stands. There are worse governments than the US government. But lots better too.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#187

Post by javajosh »

r00fus wrote: post #162
javajosh wrote: post #14

The USA is automatically photographing millions of cars and putting the data in a giant database used by all law-enforcement. It reads like the premise of a dystopian science fiction novel. I can't help but guess that the reaction is going to be a big shoulder shrug, because, to but it bluntly, things aren't that bad for most people. If you are white, have a good job, follow the law, and make sure to richly kiss ass…

> If you are white, have a good job, follow the law, and make sure to richly kiss ass if and when you come in contact with the police, life in the USA is rich, full; it's like heaven. Sure, until any of the above changes. Or you piss off the wrong person with connections. Some of which you may have little control over. And to be honest - to not be raked over the coals simply to exercise my right to freedom of movemen…

Don't mistake my description for advocacy - heaven should not be for so few, nor should it be so judgmental and so brittle.

As for your comments about movement - try to keep some perspective! While the TSA is an icon of everything wrong with our security climate (security theater, irrational assessment of risk, irrational assignment of resources, and a banal humiliation meted out to those who can't afford to skip the lines) it is, at least theoretically, under our control. The next President could dismantle the whole thing (although I'm not sure what statutory restrictions there are - certainly the President and Congress could change things if they wanted).

No one wants to be the one to dismantle the TSA, because when the next attack happens (not if, when) they'll get the blame.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#188

Post by mattlutze »

Zigurd wrote: post #139
zghst wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Radical transparency would be good, so long as it's not exposed to everyone in the world. We often forget the multitude of wickedness in the world, and while the US government smells, there are actors on the outside that wouldn't hesitate to manipulate/destroy us the moment we free up information. Undoubtedly, the power between the people and the government is unbalanced, but unrestricted transparency is not a one st…

That's a heck of an assertion. Just because there are bad people we can't know what our government does? Let's stipulate all the bad wickedness you would like me to think there is. How much of that has the actual means to threaten the US in any economically or militarily significant way? With radical transparency may find that we're harming ourselves more by overspending on security theater, and that, for all their w…

> That's a heck of an assertion. Just because there are bad people we can't know what our government does?

Yes. Your intentions aren't malicious. There are many millions of people whose intentions are malicious. It takes very few of them to do you, your family, your neighbors serious harm.

It shocks me how many people on this site seem to not understand that sometimes.

How is it logical that a few kids in SF building some world-changing piece of software is expected, but a few kids in _____ building a piece of software and whaling a few executives in the DOD, DOJ, DOE and damaging critical national infrastructure is beyond possibility.

How how does is it not clear that exposure of an infrastructure of information gathering would eradicate our ability to do anything but read newspapers about what's going on in the rest of the world?

Yes we need better or different protection against domestic spying. As always technology is ahead of the government, and the professional politicians are simply not technology savvy enough to understand the implications of what they let happen.

We need a continuation of the values and knowledge development that our current tech-centric generations hold. When young people start not caring about how their tech works, is when we'll end up with more of the same convenience over propriety issues we're currently dealing with.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#189

Post by onion2k »

toadi wrote: post #175
stegosaurus wrote: post #6

Same deal in the UK with the national ANPR system (Automatic Number Plate Recognition). Ostensibly to reduce the amount of uninsured/untaxed drivers on the roads. Don't want to sit around in databases? Well, here's a nice list of just a few of the things you can't have: Bank account; Car/motorcycle; Mobile telephone; Internet-connected computer; Credit/debit card; Visible face (oh, we might be safe there, for a few y…

"Unless of course you're a criminal, in which case you can handily avoid a lot of this!" Actually it's even more serious. If you try to avoid it it's a criminal act and your labeled as a criminal. To be very honest I'd rather move to a remote place getting away of this evolution.

To be very honest I'd rather move to a remote place getting away of this evolution.

Honest question: What's stopping you?

A huge number of people say they'd readily give up life in a nation that infringes their privacy for a different life away from prying eyes, but very, very few people actually bother to do it. There are plenty of nations where surveillance is still at the 'none' level, beyond a few paper records for things like passports and car registration. And generally they're quite cheap to live in and have nice weather. So why are you still living in the apparently awful conditions where you are now?

Could it be that privacy is actually much less important to you than ready access to, say, a good internet connection?

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#190

Post by JonCox »

stegosaurus wrote: post #6

Same deal in the UK with the national ANPR system (Automatic Number Plate Recognition). Ostensibly to reduce the amount of uninsured/untaxed drivers on the roads. Don't want to sit around in databases? Well, here's a nice list of just a few of the things you can't have: Bank account; Car/motorcycle; Mobile telephone; Internet-connected computer; Credit/debit card; Visible face (oh, we might be safe there, for a few y…

I sometimes feel the Hacker News crowd are a bit out of touch with the rest of the population.

Here in the UK most people I know feel safer with surveillance, it's used primarily to keep law and order.

We don't live in some authoritarian state where it's used for nefarious means, it's used to keep the public safe.

And seriously, why would you care if you're sitting on a database? What difference does it make to anything?

And I want to know when this mythical time was when we all had total privacy? I don't understand what bothers people so much about a person in a CCTV monitoring station looking at them sitting on a bus, or a spook reading the emails I send to my parents. Honestly, no-one cares.

Post reply on HN