When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid' • Hacker News Board

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#181

Post by nickbauman » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 9:38 PM UTC

Amezarak wrote: post #166

nickbauman wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: Why is it awkward? I think if people dig down deep and think about the answer to this question, there is no reason for this. Because nobody is ever paid what they're "worth." Assume for a moment that you don't need the money. Would you show up for your job tomorrow if they stopped paying you? If the answer is "no", I sincerely hope you are looking for a job that the answer could be "yes". If you aren…

> Would you show up for your job tomorrow if they stopped paying you? If the answer is "no", I sincerely hope you are looking for a job that the answer could be "yes". If you aren't, then I assert you are in the process of tacit self-immolation. I haven't yet found a job that pays me to sit around and read a lot, or spend time with my girlfriend, or take long walks in the woods to think, or any of the other things I…

We have a framing issue. (vo·ca·tion: late Middle English: from Old French, or from Latin vocatio(n-), from vocare "to call.") I like to read, take long walks, talk to my spouse in an unplanned, sporadic way because by their very nature, those things are not really "vocations". This is about what CALLS you to work, not about what's necessarily pleasurable or a pastime.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#182

Post by Amezarak » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 9:58 PM UTC

nickbauman wrote: post #181

Amezarak wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you show up for your job tomorrow if they stopped paying you? If the answer is "no", I sincerely hope you are looking for a job that the answer could be "yes". If you aren't, then I assert you are in the process of tacit self-immolation. I haven't yet found a job that pays me to sit around and read a lot, or spend time with my girlfriend, or take long walks in the woods to think, or any of the other things I…

We have a framing issue. (vo·ca·tion: late Middle English: from Old French, or from Latin vocatio(n-), from vocare "to call.") I like to read, take long walks, talk to my spouse in an unplanned, sporadic way because by their very nature, those things are not really "vocations". This is about what CALLS you to work, not about what's necessarily pleasurable or a pastime.

No, I understand that. What I'm saying is that I have no "calling" and do not expect to ever have a calling. I do development work because it makes me money, I am very good at it, and solving solvable problems feels nice, but if you dropped 10 million in my lap I doubt I would ever touch a line of code again.

Barring the vicissitudes of fortune, I'd spend the rest of my life relaxing, spending time with people I like, going about reading the same kinds of books I do now, perhaps traveling a bit, and perhaps if I was really bored I'd sit down and write a book of insights unlikely to be interesting or original. I wouldn't feel called to do anything.

Heck, if someone offered me 10k more to do some other non-development job and it wasn't more strenuous and didn't require more time out of my day, I'd do that. If they paid me to go to school and learn something I know next-to-nothing about like, I don't know, biochemistry, that'd be fine and I'd be just as happy.

I look around me and I really don't think most other people have a calling either. Maybe I'm wrong. They work because they have to get by, not because they love their work. The HN community (and therefore I assume much of SV in general) seems to me to extraordinary in that regard. Of course there are other people, professions, and communities with a disproportionate amount of those who feel they're called to their profession. But overall I think it's the exception rather than the rule.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#183

Post by nostrademons » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 10:06 PM UTC

Amezarak wrote: post #166

nickbauman wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: Why is it awkward? I think if people dig down deep and think about the answer to this question, there is no reason for this. Because nobody is ever paid what they're "worth." Assume for a moment that you don't need the money. Would you show up for your job tomorrow if they stopped paying you? If the answer is "no", I sincerely hope you are looking for a job that the answer could be "yes". If you aren…

> Would you show up for your job tomorrow if they stopped paying you? If the answer is "no", I sincerely hope you are looking for a job that the answer could be "yes". If you aren't, then I assert you are in the process of tacit self-immolation. I haven't yet found a job that pays me to sit around and read a lot, or spend time with my girlfriend, or take long walks in the woods to think, or any of the other things I…

FWIW, many thinktanks and research consultancies pay you to sit around and read a lot, and occasionally even take long walks in the woods to think. There are often pretty steep barriers to entry - they usually recruit out of the Ivy League or top liberal arts colleges, and it usually helps to know someone there if you want to get in - but those jobs do exist.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#184

Post by Robadob » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 10:21 PM UTC

lotsofmangos wrote: post #170

Robadob wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article[1] links to various sources which cite different values. Of those, this report[2] (research funded by US Department of Labour) states in it's summary (page 35); "Specifically, variables have been developed to represent career interruption among workers with specific gender, age, and number of children. Statistical analysis that includes those variables has produced results that collectively account for b…

4.8 to 7.1% is quite a bit more significant than your initial claim of 2 to 3% edit - also, how do you claim to have any kind of confidence in the accuracy of your own estimate, while simultaneously arguing that reaching any sort of accurate value is impossible?

It was someone else who made that initial claim of 2%, however if you read the full summary of my second link, they admit to only accounting for factors they were able to measure. So additional factors they didn't account for, may have influence towards the divide (other than gender-pay), and may account for any number that could further reduce that 4.8-7.1%. I'm not saying it is as low as 2-3%, but its certainly possible.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#185

Post by zenogais » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 10:23 PM UTC

nickbauman wrote: post #181

Amezarak wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you show up for your job tomorrow if they stopped paying you? If the answer is "no", I sincerely hope you are looking for a job that the answer could be "yes". If you aren't, then I assert you are in the process of tacit self-immolation. I haven't yet found a job that pays me to sit around and read a lot, or spend time with my girlfriend, or take long walks in the woods to think, or any of the other things I…

We have a framing issue. (vo·ca·tion: late Middle English: from Old French, or from Latin vocatio(n-), from vocare "to call.") I like to read, take long walks, talk to my spouse in an unplanned, sporadic way because by their very nature, those things are not really "vocations". This is about what CALLS you to work, not about what's necessarily pleasurable or a pastime.

The concept of a vocation is a fairly recent invention, mostly arising out of the Protestant brand of Christianity. Work has been disdained throughout most of history [1]. Therefore, I would say that liking your work or finding your calling are not things that everyone can even do or has to do. The idea of a vocation strikes me more as intellectual rationalizations arising in tandem with the current economic mode of life.

[1] http://www.amazon.com/The-History-Work-Richard-Donkin/dp/023...

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#186

Post by greggman » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 10:38 PM UTC

poikniok wrote: post #153

nickbauman wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: Why is it awkward? I think if people dig down deep and think about the answer to this question, there is no reason for this. Because nobody is ever paid what they're "worth." Assume for a moment that you don't need the money. Would you show up for your job tomorrow if they stopped paying you? If the answer is "no", I sincerely hope you are looking for a job that the answer could be "yes". If you aren…

Honestly I think it is a bit sad that you cannot imagine that a person would prefer to do something other than work, and that the alternative must be to find other work to do. I have other things that I enjoy that are not my job, such as my family and my hobbies. Maybe look into one day finding something you enjoy outside of work.

That's a good point. I guess I feel like most people, given infinite money, would still find something of value to others to do.

I'm biased as I like coding. Even if I didn't need money I'd still code my own projects.

In other words you get 20 million dollars. You quit your job, buy a house, travel the world, but eventually you'll get bored and start doing something. Writing a novel, volunteering, teaching, something that helps others. It's that something that's more than likely something you could get paid for.

I'm open to the idea that maybe many people would just do nothing of value to anyone else. I suppose looking at retired people might be a good pool of data. How many of them are doing nothing of value to anyone but themselves and their family and how many are happy and what's the correlation between the two.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#187

Post by lomnakkus » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 10:46 PM UTC

Amezarak wrote: post #166

nickbauman wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: Why is it awkward? I think if people dig down deep and think about the answer to this question, there is no reason for this. Because nobody is ever paid what they're "worth." Assume for a moment that you don't need the money. Would you show up for your job tomorrow if they stopped paying you? If the answer is "no", I sincerely hope you are looking for a job that the answer could be "yes". If you aren…

> Would you show up for your job tomorrow if they stopped paying you? If the answer is "no", I sincerely hope you are looking for a job that the answer could be "yes". If you aren't, then I assert you are in the process of tacit self-immolation. I haven't yet found a job that pays me to sit around and read a lot, or spend time with my girlfriend, or take long walks in the woods to think, or any of the other things I…

> I haven't yet found a job that pays me to sit around and read a lot [...]

Then I contend that you haven't found a place of employment that values you as an individual and just views you as a cog in a giant machine -- in which case: leave as soon as you can! If possible, start your own business.

(Btw, there are places that value individuals, but they are alas few and far between :(. )

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#188

Post by greggman » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 10:49 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #14

Iv wrote: post #9

I work for more than a decade now and I still am unsure about what rule to follow. Here are a few things that I have seen happening: I once believed in transparency about that. I told my salary to a friend I just helped to get hired in the company where I already had a few years of experience. Upon hearing my higher salary, he immediately went to my boss to ask for a raise. Due to an incredible incompetence of the HR…

Well, do you know what has a bigger impact than seeing your coworker's salaries? Seeing how much the customers of your company are billed for the job you do.

That used to bug me. Now I see it as I'm willing to accept less because I don't have to deal with all the business, networking, advertizing, schmoozing, negotiating, etc. Stuff I have no interest in doing.

In other words, yea, I could make 2x, 3x, 5x, 10x more but I'd have way more stress and doing all kinds of stuff I really hate doing. Sometimes it bugs me but then I think am I really willing to put in all that extra effort doing stuff don't want to do and almost always the answer is "no"

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#189

Post by tomp » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 11:01 PM UTC

nickbauman wrote: post #143

sxp wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you know the salary of the people you're directly working with, things can get awkward. One alternative is to discuss salary with people who are sufficiently distant from your daily work but are expected to be making the same amount as you. For large companies, this would be people in different divisions who have the same title and years of experience. For small companies, you will probably need to talk to people…

Honest question: Why is it awkward? I think if people dig down deep and think about the answer to this question, there is no reason for this. Because nobody is ever paid what they're "worth." Assume for a moment that you don't need the money. Would you show up for your job tomorrow if they stopped paying you? If the answer is "no", I sincerely hope you are looking for a job that the answer could be "yes". If you aren…

I'm a programmer, at work and in my free time, and I reasonably enjoy things I work on. Still, if I had enough money, I would quit practically whichever job there exists on this planet and go work on my own projects (possibly except if I was working for SpaceX or CERN). I would work on open source projects that strive to create a better world, such as Rust, I would study and work on creating AI or at least "smart" systems that could enable humanity to live better by automating agriculture, waste management, electricity generation, ... Unfortunately, any of these things is a multi-year, high-stakes project that I'm in no position to undertake given my current net worth, hence I'm a wage-worker.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#190

Post by mgkimsal » Sat, Jan 24, 2015, 11:02 PM UTC

acveilleux wrote: post #156

mgkimsal wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally, agreed, at least the first time. I was being paid.. $17/hr and being billed out at $100/hr. I moved to a company starting at $22/hr, being billed out at $150-$175/hr. The 'hourly' was just a breakdown of salaried - sometimes worked more than 40hrs, never paid for it. And I also get that people aren't 100% billable, you have to build in downtime to the salary, etc. I get it. But I do know in one year I bill…

I bet that was a nice raise too.

Well... it was decent, but it was mostly maintenance at that point. Actually, we rebuilt the system in a different platform that was much easier to build and easier to maintain, so within a year there was far less work to do. Worked myself out of a gig, but had a happy client...