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Edward Snowden: The Untold Story

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181–190 of 232 posts

Re: Edward Snowden: The Untold Story

#181

If the last straw to leak this information was when Snowden learned about this MonsterMind program, why are we learning about it more than a year later without any prior mention whatsoever? (and without documents to back up the claims) Also, if he learned about it after taking up his job with Booz Allen Hamilton in 2013, why was he contacting Glenn Greenwald in December of 2012?[1] Ditto with the excuse that Clapper'…

It was the "last straw" that broke the camel's back, not necessarily the "heaviest straw" to Snowden, or the one the public most needs/deserves to hear about. Besides, I think I have essentially read about this already (automated cyberdefense with offensive capabilities), minus the codename or apparent connection to the Bluffdale facility.

I can understand the timing suspicions. Frankly, I'm in the camp that tends to trust Snowden, but putting that aside, I think some discrepancies could at least be partially explained by one or more factors:

a) the journalist is putting some words in Snowden's mouth about "last straw" or "the time had come to act";

b) Snowden was still deciding what actions to take (yeah, he emailed Greenwald back then and was almost certainly going to share something, but may have been on the fence about how far to go);

c) Snowden has sort of unconsciously mentally revised the exact timeline -- I think this is not unusual for someone looking back on their "life-changing moments", difficult decisions, months-long transformations etc. Or, the quote about Clapper may have been Snowden using it as a microcosm for everything else that put him down the path he was already on (by contacting Greenwald.) Maybe as it happened he saw it as vindication of the decision he'd already made. Maybe he was going back and forth for months -- although he'd contacted Greenwald and started collecting documents, he had left open the option of turning back, but had his resolve renewed by "the Clapper event."

So yeah, it's fishy, but I don't think there are any smoking guns per se. It's not like they quote Snowden as saying, "After Clapper's false testimony, I contacted Greenwald for the first time" while Greenwald says it happened 6 months before.

Pro-NSA people say it's not a fair debate because the government isn't allowed to talk about the classified details. That applies to Snowden too, because it's difficult for him to communicate his side to the public, being filtered through journalists (who may be juggling his quotes around and mixing up the timeline for the sake of a better story) and not having many opportunities (or eschewing them, to avoid becoming the center of focus.)

I read an interesting and new (to me) statement of intense premeditation in "There was one key area that remained out of his reach: the NSA’s aggressive cyberwarfare activity around the world. To get access to that last cache of secrets, Snowden landed a job as an infrastructure analyst with another giant NSA contractor, Booz Allen." So he took a job specifically for the access it would afford him, with the specific intent to steal and leak?

Re: Edward Snowden: The Untold Story

#182
post #161
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is saying that it is ok because they started it. We are saying that we believe international espionage is a requirement for a country like the US and this operation seemed to be a standard and worthwhile one that happened to be a spectacular failure. You are free to disagree, but I don't think any serious politician in the US would. Revealing something like this doesn't seem to advance Snowden's initial goals…

It has positive value if you believe that non-American lives are as valuable as American lives, something a lot of people outside of the U.S. happen to believe.

And inside the US too...

Re: Edward Snowden: The Untold Story

#183
post #58
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a European, I've always been somewhat aware of a certain degree of internal propaganda going on in US media (things like different magazine covers for international editions were always quite glaring), but since 2001 the situation worsened so much, I do feel for you guys. Lessons from the '00s were not learnt, US newsrooms are full of sycophantic Judith Millers and people like Greenwald are still ostracized. EDIT:…

> a certain degree of internal propaganda going on in US media The movie industry is one of the very powerful tools for shaping the public opinion in the US. This obviously includes TV series ("24" is an example for not-so-subtle manipulative material).

Are the shows made because they are now more relevant, or are they made to influence? shrug

Re: Edward Snowden: The Untold Story

#184
post #47

A division of NSA hackers attempted in 2012 to remotely install an exploit in one of the core routers at a major Internet service provider in Syria, which was in the midst of a prolonged civil war. But something went wrong, and the router was bricked instead, which caused Syria to suddenly lose all connection to the Internet. So in middle of a war zone, US conducted sabotage to core infrastructure of an other nation,…

> In middle of a war zone > In peacetime So which is it? There was (is) a war raging in Syria, the US has interests there -- like it or not -- and the NSA is a US intelligence agency. This story sounds like an example of the NSA just doing its job. I have no problem with the NSA spying on foreign communications or disrupting them. After all, that's their job. What else would we use the NSA for? What I do have a probl…

The US "has interests" everywhere, and is likely the reason so many groups are angry at them.

> What I do have a problem with is that the NSA makes apparently zero effort to disambiguate between foreign, and domestic, communications.

So it's OK as long as it isn't you? Is it OK for China to spy on US communications?

Re: Edward Snowden: The Untold Story

#185
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you reread my comment, you'll see I didn't employ that logic at all. I asked a simple question. Should we declare war on France, China, and Israel?

If a french governemnt agency put a exploit in a nuclear reactor, and a bug caused a meltdown inside the US, should the US declare war on france? let me ask your question with an other question: How many lives can a spy agency kill until it is no longer acceptable?

What?

Re: Edward Snowden: The Untold Story

#186
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is in revealing things like this that make me question Snowden. While both points are interesting and maybe a little troubling, they are certainly not whistleblowing in the name of protecting the rights of American citizens. He has moved from simply exposing the breadth of the domestic spying apparatus to exposing the tactics the United States uses in legitimate espionage operations. Isn't trying to compromise the…

There are good replies to this question in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8173019 I don't think spying and disrupting communications on a country you are not at war at, and that is going through a civil war (putting the lives of innocent people on the edge), is the type of things the NSA should be doing.

[deleted]

Re: Edward Snowden: The Untold Story

#187
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This school playground logic of "it's ok because they started it" sickens me. OK. I get it; espionage is a reality and only espionage can deal with it. But for god sake there's people in here commenting that Snowden is a traitor because he leaked information that didn't directly concern the american people. Really, now. Compare those two situations: "A group of hackers have targeted Syrian ISPs and, in an attempt to…

No one is saying that it is ok because they started it. We are saying that we believe international espionage is a requirement for a country like the US and this operation seemed to be a standard and worthwhile one that happened to be a spectacular failure. You are free to disagree, but I don't think any serious politician in the US would. Revealing something like this doesn't seem to advance Snowden's initial goals…

How about traditional journalism and reporting as a method of intelligence? The government is supposed to be for and by the people and I for one don't feel comfortable with my tax dollars going to aid this sort of actively offensive espionage/violation of human rights. But that's just my opinion and it's something I should vote for or whatever if I feel strongly about it; that's not what this is about. This is about a right to know what type of actions my government (which is supposed to be a representation of me) is involved in in this world. Without Snowden I would never know for certain that my government is involved in actions like this and I would never have the ability to object to actions like this in a public forum without being labeled a conspiracy theorist. I mean just look at this list of articles speculating on what was going on with Syria's internet, do any of these even dare to speculate that it was NSA espionage that caused the outages? Of course not cause that's fucking crazy; except it's not and we know it's not because of Snowden and Snowden alone. He is a truer patriot than you or I will ever be.

Press coverage of the Syrian internet outage at the time: http://www.cnet.com/news/blackout-syria-vanishes-from-intern.... "The Middle Eastern country has been experiencing an Internet outage for several hours, and many people on Twitter are reporting that phone lines are down as well." http://www.renesys.com/2012/11/syria-off-the-air/ "There was one brief whole-country outage of less than ten minutes on 25 November. By the time that one was confirmed, the outage was over. It would be reaching to call that a “precursor event” or “practice run,” but that’s a possibility." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/30/anonymous-declares-.... "The Syrian government said that terrorists were behind the outages, but CloudFlare, a firm that helps accelerate Internet traffic, said it would have been extremely difficult for any type of sabotage to cause such a comprehensive blackout, according to Reuters." http://blog.cloudflare.com/how-syria-turned-off-the-internet "All the edge routers are controlled by Syrian Telecommunications. The systematic way in which routes were withdrawn suggests that this was done through updates in router configurations, not through a physical failure or cable cut."

Re: Edward Snowden: The Untold Story

#188
post #18

Two key 'new' things from this article, that were previously unknown: 1. The NSA exploited the firmware of a Syrian core internet router, and bricked it by mistake. This was an "oh shit" moment (sic). So in it's eagerness to scoop up all digital communications, it killed the majormost way for citizens to communicate while in the midst of a civil war. Great. 2. There is a project called "MonsterMind", which 100% autom…

NO

Please, I read Hacker News for intelligent discourse, away from Reddit-type nonsense.

There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that the NSA hacked the Syrian core router. Snowden was passing on office gossip which he heard. Why isn't that fact mentioned? Because it doesn't suit the cultural narrative?

Re: Edward Snowden: The Untold Story

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very interesting that TAO attempted to remotely compromise a core router. What happened to diverting Cisco boxes to an "undisclosed location" for installing implants?

It's illegal for US corporations to do deals directly with several governments. Syria most likely bought the gear used through gray/black market channels.

Where can I get me one of those sweet sweet black market routers?

Re: Edward Snowden: The Untold Story

#190
post #25

"Programs like this had existed for decades, but MonsterMind software would add a unique new capability: Instead of simply detecting and killing the malware at the point of entry, MonsterMind would automatically fire back, with no human involvement. That's a problem, Snowden says, because the initial attacks are often routed through computers in innocent third countries. “These attacks can be spoofed,” he says. “You…

pro Wi-Fi gear will do that already out of the box you can set up an AirNet system with spare AP's that act as trackers and aggressor nodes to kill rouge ap's or host's

Yeah but you probably can't afford the gear/internet connection it would take to bring a Russian hospital to its knees whereas the NSA could probably bring every Russian hospital to their collective knees before any human knew what was happening.
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