Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ?

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#181

Post by timr » Mon, Sep 07, 2009, 1:54 AM UTC

apotheon wrote: post #163

timr wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a knee-jerk response. For future reference, a good indication of a knee-jerk response is a remark that reduces an opponent's arguments to seven-word soundbites involving profanity.

> It's not a knee-jerk response. How else would you describe a response that doesn't even take into account the possibility that one could avoid government regulation when there's apparently no solid proof that regulation is better than the lack of regulation? It sounds like a knee-jerk response to me. Why don't you default to "We shouldn't spend a bunch of extra money on regulation when we don't have any reason to b…

Being "knee-jerk" means being reactionary and reckless, whereas I am making a single, limited argument: the law prohibits unpaid labor uniformly in all situations. It does not require a regulatory value judgment to make a decision.

You may not like the values the law represents, but you can't attack its implementation as subjective.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#182

Post by apotheon » Mon, Sep 07, 2009, 10:12 PM UTC

timr wrote: post #181

apotheon wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not a knee-jerk response. How else would you describe a response that doesn't even take into account the possibility that one could avoid government regulation when there's apparently no solid proof that regulation is better than the lack of regulation? It sounds like a knee-jerk response to me. Why don't you default to "We shouldn't spend a bunch of extra money on regulation when we don't have any reason to b…

Being "knee-jerk" means being reactionary and reckless, whereas I am making a single, limited argument: the law prohibits unpaid labor uniformly in all situations. It does not require a regulatory value judgment to make a decision. You may not like the values the law represents, but you can't attack its implementation as subjective.

Are you now saying that all you did in the first place is affirm that something exists -- something we all know already exists -- in the midst of discussion of whether it should exist? WTF is the point of that?

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#183

Post by apotheon » Mon, Sep 07, 2009, 10:17 PM UTC

voidpointer wrote: post #137

apotheon wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. I'm not sure you're clear on the meaning of the term "strawman". 2. An internship actually can be valuable work experience, and that job may not exist at all if it can't be unpaid.

Strawman in a sense were the party offering the unpaid internship distorts the value of the compensation through gaining experience. So the argument of the first party not being paid can be refuted by saying that compensation occurs through gaining experience. You are right though, it's quite a stretch of the term. What I wanted to say is that the party offering compensation through experience is, in my opinion, just…

> Strawman in a sense were the party offering the unpaid internship distorts the value of the compensation through gaining experience. So the argument of the first party not being paid can be refuted by saying that compensation occurs through gaining experience.

That wouldn't make it a strawman fallacy -- it would just make it refutable.

> in my opinion

I don't think that the fact some people have that opinion is justification for the law.

> A person on a full-time internship should get enough to cover basic living expenses.

I haven't heard of many full-time internships. People who take internships generally don't have the time for full-time without pay, and the organizations that offer those internships tend to know that.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#184

Post by apotheon » Mon, Sep 07, 2009, 10:19 PM UTC

mcantelon wrote: post #130

apotheon wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could speculate about that all day. Maybe it has the potential to become beneficial. Maybe it has secondary effects that would be beneficial to his sports franchise, but he can't justify the expense to shareholders. Maybe he would like to provide something for the fans because he's a fan himself. What's it to you why he wants to do it?

If it has value in these forms then why isn't he willing to pay for this value? Basically he wants unpaid interns to subsidize his investment. Not only do the interns themselves pay, but society as a whole pays as unpaid internships devalue labor.

Why does everyone seem so insistent on ignoring the claim that it's too expensive to pay regular employees for this work, and as a result, without interns, the project won't happen at all?

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#185

Post by apotheon » Mon, Sep 07, 2009, 10:22 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #114

apotheon wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, he's complaining that he can't employ people for a project that probably won't happen at all unless he can employ interns. You're saying "screw him" because he wants to create something that is of greater advantage to people entering the workforce than not having it in existence at all.

Yes. That's what he's complaining about. His business has a project that only works if he can start it with people he doesn't pay. You just said nothing at all: we knew he wanted to do something with the interns, apotheon.

Whoosh.

Jesus, people. It's not like he refuses to pay anyone for anything at any time. The core of his complaint is that a project won't happen and people won't get work experience (how much you think he weights each of these relative to the other is your own affair), and not that paying people for projects that can happen that way is a problem somehow. It may seem like a fine distinction, but it's pretty much central to the whole discussion.

If you think I said nothing at all, you aren't listening (or maybe you just refuse to think beyond your intense desire to believe Cuban is eeevil).

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#186

Post by apotheon » Mon, Sep 07, 2009, 10:33 PM UTC

timr wrote: post #112

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might be the time to mention the true story of Christopher Gardner, as shown in "The Pursuit of Happyness" who worked for six months without pay to find his dream. One story does not an argument make, but it's just an observation.

He also had to live on the street with his child for those six months, and at the end of the day was still lucky to get the job. Maybe he wouldn't have been given the opportunity at all if it were paid (though I find that line of reasoning doubtful), but it's pretty hard to argue that he wouldn't have been better off with a paid internship.

> it's pretty hard to argue that he wouldn't have been better off with a paid internship.

. . . if the internship existed at all.

Your argument seems to take the form "The downside you suggest is doubtful to me, but it's pretty hard to argue he wouldn't have been better off if he did everything exactly the same and magically got money."

Well, duh -- if people give you money, you're likely to be better off, if all else is equal. This whole discussion started with an "all else is not equal" set of circumstances, though, where Cuban stated outright that the project cannot afford to exist if the "internships" are paid with hard cash. Period.

Thus, the "doubtful" circumstance is a reality in this case -- and, given that state of affairs, talking about whether they'd be better off if Cuban would just pay them for these jobs that don't exist is nothing but wanking.

Let's discuss this in the on-topic world for a moment: Do you think these potential unpaid internships that have been prohibited by government could have benefited some people who are now worse off because those opportunities don't exist, or not? If you think they could have, perhaps you can explain why you want to deny them those opportunities. If you think they could not have, perhaps you could explain why not. That's what's relevant here -- not whether or not everybody magically having more money would be nice.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#187

Post by apotheon » Mon, Sep 07, 2009, 10:40 PM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #180

cperciva wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, and one doesn't need a driver's license to know how to drive -- but a system of licensing is the most efficient way of verifying qualifications.

Why should we prefer licencing to certification, if desired with protected titles so that the difference between e.g. a Software Engineer (certified) and a programmer is abundantly obvious to anyone to anyone who does the research? Likewise lawyer (passed Bar exam) and an employee of a legal services company which does the kind of routine legal services that are well within the capabilities of the average paralegal b…

Certification is much better than licensing, because one can always choose to ignore certification, or shop around for the best certifications. This, in turn, is important because licensing and certification both sometimes fail utterly to accurately reflect someone's capabilities -- which means that sometimes you're better off avoiding the licensed or certified individual in favor of someone else who doesn't have the same license or certification but knows his or her shit better and more thoroughly. In the case of a licensed industry, though, you're not allowed to make that kind of decision for yourself.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#188

Post by rapind » Tue, Sep 08, 2009, 4:48 AM UTC

cwan wrote: post #161

rapind wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think our difference of opinion really boils down to our views of companies at large. Not every company is ethically responsible and many companies don't put enough thought into the hiring process at all. Once some kind of work becomes free, companies will do less and less diligence hiring for these position, simply because the value of the work becomes trivialized. This ends up hurting the workers and the company…

Hmmm - that's interesting. I think one of the best pieces of advice that I've read about being a manager is to treat each your employees as if they're volunteers. I realize that this is going a bit off the reservation now as far as our discussion goes, but it's something that I've been trying to strive for (often unsuccessfully) - but I think it's useful for building the type of culture that maximizes productivity (a…

Well a lot of the spec work actually is illegal in terms of copyright infringement. As it grows, so does the infringement. This will create a loads of litigation. Eventually the market will most likely take care of it through some better form of copy protection or through laws. This is going to take a while and probably cost a lot of money and I can handle that as long as it isn't taxpayer money I guess.

As long as it's the businesses that foot the bill then I really can't complain right? However when it comes to free interns the consequences are either paid for by the people, or it's limited to those that can afford to go without a pay check. If I'm paying for someone's rent and food stamps while they get an education / experience / whatever as an intern, then I'd feel better if I knew it was a respectable education / experience etc.

I simply do not believe free internships will give me this piece of mind. On a case by case basis, sure there are probably plenty of great free opportunities, but this is shark infested waters imo. I think the majority will see very little benefit if the floodgates were opened.

It also sounds like the way you run your ship is very ethical and mature. While I'm sure plenty of other business would be just as fair, I highly doubt they would be the majority. In fact I think you would be part of a very small minority. The words Free Interns would attract a lot of attention. Maybe there should be a qualifying process that a company could go through to have this right? Similar to government grants maybe.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#189

Post by rapind » Tue, Sep 08, 2009, 4:52 AM UTC

apotheon wrote: post #175

rapind wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think our difference of opinion really boils down to our views of companies at large. Not every company is ethically responsible and many companies don't put enough thought into the hiring process at all. Once some kind of work becomes free, companies will do less and less diligence hiring for these position, simply because the value of the work becomes trivialized. This ends up hurting the workers and the company…

> Not every company is ethically responsible What annoys me most about many of the opinions expressed in this discussion is that people think it's okay to punish the honest employers, and the people those honest employers would like to employ, for the actions of the dishonest employers.

Then I will definitely add that not every company is ethically irresponsible. I don't think opening up free internships is the right way to go though. I could be convinced that some sort of qualifying process to keep most of the bad out and let most of the good in could be worthwhile if it was not overly expensive to implement.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#190

Post by mcantelon » Tue, Sep 08, 2009, 8:42 PM UTC

apotheon wrote: post #184

mcantelon wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it has value in these forms then why isn't he willing to pay for this value? Basically he wants unpaid interns to subsidize his investment. Not only do the interns themselves pay, but society as a whole pays as unpaid internships devalue labor.

Why does everyone seem so insistent on ignoring the claim that it's too expensive to pay regular employees for this work, and as a result, without interns, the project won't happen at all ?

If there is no value in it, why does it matter if it doesn't happen?