The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies • Hacker News Board

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#181

Post by TillE » Tue, Apr 01, 2014, 3:55 PM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #64

In my experience, regular programming is doable in open floor plans. You can write stupid crud sites and winforms apps just fine. As long you have headphones on. But when you have a system crash and need to dive through 100mb of log files to try and figure out what went wrong. Good luck doing that in a standard open office! You just have to schedule a few hours after everyone else has gone home so you can have some p…

This really says it all. If you're doing something which involves a great deal of concentration or careful thought (eg, software design) or learning something new, then interruptions are death.

Simpler work where you know exactly what you're doing, where there are no difficult choices to be made, can probably be accomplished in any environment. Sometimes that's the vast majority of the work you're doing, sometimes it's not. It really depends on the type of application.

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#182

Post by archonjobs » Tue, Apr 01, 2014, 3:57 PM UTC

danielweber wrote: post #22

abalone wrote: post #10

Suffers from the same flaw as most critiques of open plan: it focuses on individual productivity while failing to understand how it contributes to team productivity. Cornell did a study of open plan awhile back that you should all read. I posted it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7507404 The misunderstanding here is that it's just about serendipitously "overhearing" other conversations. 1. Open plan makes…

why_not_both.png ? People should have private offices so they can be alone to think when they need, and also have bullpen areas where they can collaborate.

Agreed, the either-or mindset is unnecessary. This hybrid arrangement based on days of the week works well for us: http://www.archonsystems.com/devblog/2013/09/19/open-offices...

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#183

Post by peterwwillis » Tue, Apr 01, 2014, 3:58 PM UTC

This presents two choices:

  A. annoy your employees but increase communication
  B. reduce employee stress but decrease communication

There is a third choice that nobody ever talks about:

  C. increase communication, let employees decide if they will work in open or closed spaces

How do you accomplish C? Two ways.

1. Increasing communication: This is a huge, huge topic, and would be most effective with training sessions that work on the varying problems with communication. One size does not fit all, but general techniques exist to allow people to collaborate easier in a variety of ways. You figure out what works for your team and you maximize communication, which increases collaboration.

2. Movable partitions. Either people can work on an open desk layout, or surround their desk with a movable partition that partially or completely isolates them. These are cheap, flexible and allows the employee to dictate their preferred level of comfort in physical interaction.

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#184

Post by riggins » Tue, Apr 01, 2014, 4:03 PM UTC

pitt1980 wrote: post #153

riggins wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

here's an almost comical excerpt from the Cornell study http://iwsp.human.cornell.edu/file_uploads/offices1_12382569... The data showed that younger workers liked these kinds of offices more than older workers. The reason was instructive: they felt they could learn more from their “officemates” in this kind of office. This makes sense, since in interviews a common reason for wanting to join a company was the opportun…

that squares with my experience as well the question though is who needs does it make sense for the business to cater to? also, from my experience, sometimes getting good answers to those early questions makes young workers exponential more productive going into the future

everything you say makes sense.

My initial thought is the best setup would really depend on the task.

For really complex tasks I would guess that you'd want a more closed environment. As a concrete example, if you're trying to make a theoretical breakthrough in cryptography, I'd guess you need an environment where you can seriously concentrate.

For maybe a less complex task, one where execution matters the most, like web development, a more open plan where its easier to coordinate might be better.

And obviously the quality of your co-workers matters a lot. High quality co-workers will have less questions and the value of training them up will be greater.

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#185

Post by matwood » Tue, Apr 01, 2014, 4:04 PM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #44

abalone wrote: post #10

Suffers from the same flaw as most critiques of open plan: it focuses on individual productivity while failing to understand how it contributes to team productivity. Cornell did a study of open plan awhile back that you should all read. I posted it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7507404 The misunderstanding here is that it's just about serendipitously "overhearing" other conversations. 1. Open plan makes…

I think some of the best and most productive days I have had have been where I have been in the same cramped office as the rest of my team and we were all working on different chunks of the same problem - "Bob - are you using a list or a dictionary to pass the foobars in?" That's great for a single team all working on one thing - but I do not see the open plan office as a series of nicely appointed open plan offices…

I agree, team rooms are really the best of both. I've worked in all sorts of environments.

When I started programming years ago I had to wear a tie to work, and shared an office with one other person. I've since worked in large open plans, at home, in cubes, and in what would be called team rooms with everyone from the intern to the boss sitting within earshot.

IHMO, team rooms really do work. They help facilitate communication while not bothering those working with undue noise. If the team is under a crunch then naturally non-work conversations are kept to a minimum because the whole team knows it is crunch time. When there is more free time then the team adjusts accordingly.

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#186

Post by briantakita » Tue, Apr 01, 2014, 4:04 PM UTC

abalone wrote: post #10

Suffers from the same flaw as most critiques of open plan: it focuses on individual productivity while failing to understand how it contributes to team productivity. Cornell did a study of open plan awhile back that you should all read. I posted it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7507404 The misunderstanding here is that it's just about serendipitously "overhearing" other conversations. 1. Open plan makes…

Why not use asynchronous communication? The askee can answer at their convenience instead of having someone with something "important" (a marketing person with an idea) interrupting something "unimportant" (the programmer working).

I worked in environments that optimize the team, rather than the individual, for years. It is a breath of fresh air to work from home & optimize my environment for me. I'm happier, healthier, more productive, can get my business taken care of, etc. It's pretty much a total win.

I also have some "eccentric" behavior. I happen to pace & otherwise move when I think. I cannot do that with other people around.

The architecture of the software I'm working on is more coherent. I'm able to collaborate with teammates. Things are progressing quite well. I've never been happier.

Sorry, I don't have a study. Just my anecdotal experience.

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#187

Post by cwal37 » Tue, Apr 01, 2014, 4:04 PM UTC

msluyter wrote: post #112

abalone wrote: post #10

Suffers from the same flaw as most critiques of open plan: it focuses on individual productivity while failing to understand how it contributes to team productivity. Cornell did a study of open plan awhile back that you should all read. I posted it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7507404 The misunderstanding here is that it's just about serendipitously "overhearing" other conversations. 1. Open plan makes…

I call your one study and raise you 100: In 2011, the organizational psychologist Matthew Davis reviewed more than a hundred studies about office environments. He found that, though open offices often fostered a symbolic sense of organizational mission, making employees feel like part of a more laid-back, innovative enterprise, they were damaging to the workers’ attention spans, productivity, creative thinking, and s…

I spent a while trying to get it, went through the online library systems of two very different universities, which should theoretically cover almost every topic, and a lab. However, it seems that it's listed as an ebook in at least one of the systems, and it won't let me grab any specific article. I could request a physical or scanned copy I guess, but that would take longer than is probably worthwhile.

However, google search turned up that leeds link you probably came across in google scholar (or at least I did), and while the link appears to be dead, google has kept a cached version: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Im7GHQR...

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#188

Post by cwal37 » Tue, Apr 01, 2014, 4:05 PM UTC

Anderkent wrote: post #119

msluyter wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I call your one study and raise you 100: In 2011, the organizational psychologist Matthew Davis reviewed more than a hundred studies about office environments. He found that, though open offices often fostered a symbolic sense of organizational mission, making employees feel like part of a more laid-back, innovative enterprise, they were damaging to the workers’ attention spans, productivity, creative thinking, and s…

It's not clear from the article if the study measures individual productivity or team results. The pdf is paywalled unfortunately, can anyone clarify?

Google cached what is presumably a draft or first submission of the article: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Im7GHQR...

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#189

Post by matwood » Tue, Apr 01, 2014, 4:07 PM UTC

Crito wrote: post #169

RyJones wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's amazing all the managers get offices but the ICs get productivity-enhancing cubes.

Stratification. Putting "regulars" into an open floor plan and leaving managers with offices is this concept on steroids (yes, I've actually seen that). I believe that there is an unplanned unorchestrated ongoing attempt throughout the industry to prevent programmers from being seen as professionals. Reverse dress codes (you'll get odd looks and questions if you aren't dressed casually, but instead throw on a suit or…

I had to wear a tie my first few years of working. It sucked. I see dressing how I want as a sign of power, but I do agree with your overall point. Because I can dress how I want, doesn't mean I should look like a slob or unprofessional. I still wear nice clothes to work, just not corporate drone clothes anymore.

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#190

Post by hacknat » Tue, Apr 01, 2014, 4:08 PM UTC

abalone wrote: post #10

Suffers from the same flaw as most critiques of open plan: it focuses on individual productivity while failing to understand how it contributes to team productivity. Cornell did a study of open plan awhile back that you should all read. I posted it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7507404 The misunderstanding here is that it's just about serendipitously "overhearing" other conversations. 1. Open plan makes…

Team productivity? What is team productivity other than the aggregate of individual productiveness? You could argue that open floor plans help bring the weakest programmers up a bit, but at the cost of bringing down your strong programmers down. Presumably your stronger programmers are more productive, so even in this argument it brings "team productivity" down.

I have worked on a code base for the last 6 months in which I am the sole committer. A lot of my coworkers are the same. We have brief sprints where we are in each others' faces, the majority of the time we only need concrete pieces of high-context information from each other that have nothing to do with serendipity.