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Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

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Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#181
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your reasoning that arbitrary advantages could be viewed as discrimination. I'd argue though that in those cases the goal is to cancel out disadvantages (directly or inderectly) directly related to inherent parts of a person (sex,handicap,race) or are benefits that a person can generally choose to acquire (old age,veteran,handicap;) ). In the case of maternity leave it cancels out the propensity to fire/…

> I agree with your reasoning ... (some stuff) ... Awesome. Let's boycott and protest everyone who doesn't!

I can also agree that your reasoning is correct that a spherical rooster you modeled will roll off the roof. Doesn't mean you're right to argue that roosters can't stand on roofs.

Would my reply have been more useful if it did not acknowledge you have some reasonable points and instead just ignored anything you had said as you apparently feel is the appropriate way to frame this discussion. If that's the case I would expect it's safer to dismiss your view than someone's who does not subscribe to that particular philosophy.

More to the point I agree with your quote:

>> I agree with your reasoning ... (some stuff) ...

>Awesome.

>Let's boycott and protest everyone who does ... (some stuff) ...

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#182
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So equality is not a "basic huma right"?

When gays are forced to sit at the back of the bus, or not allowed to go to the same schools, or vote, then you can argue your equality angle...

Or be allowed to be included in the will of your loved one, or be allowed to visit them in the hospital, or be allowed to attend their funeral if your loved one's parents don't like you...

Can we argue it now?

Prohibiting same sex marriage is the government asserting that it is not possible for two people of the same sex to love one another, by any definition that would allow them to be considered legally "family", and that is definitely not equality.

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Next steps include: calling for the resignation of anyone who voted Republican in a recent election. I'm actually surprised this isn't a thing...

It is. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7470443

Wow.

If I boycotted and didn't use anything that was made by people I didn't agree with I'd have to live in a hole in the ground...

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Votes are private. Donations are public. That's a material difference. It's the public support that's really got people frosted. That's what makes it part of the public persona that you can't just leave at the door when you come to work. Provided your power over others is limited, it's tolerable. But when people's careers are in your hands, a public history of open, gender-based discrimination really undermines the l…

Leadership positions... like, say, someone who's the CTO / Senior VP of Engineering? Like Brendan Eich was for the past eight years?

Yes, but exponentially moreso when he becomes the public face of the company and (to some degree) the arbiter of its corporate culture.

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then where's my native (do you still call them 'indians' in the US?) status card, my veteran benefits, and my handicapped parking permit? While we're at it why can't I get maternity leave or diplomatic immunity? I'm actually married (religious ceremony) but not officially 'married' (according to the government) and I don't care nor does it really matter where I live (common-law spouses get benefits anyway). And I'm n…

In the UK, civil partnerships were introduced for same-sex couples, which gave AFAIK the exact same legal rights and tax benefits as heterosexual marriage. However, campaigners for gay marriage said this was not good enough so the Prime Minister eventually pushed through a vote for gay marriage. So it seems the issue wasn't really about legal rights, that just comes along for the ride, it was more about using the wor…

Well, the state is church and church is state in UK, so there is no surprise people want to control what Anglican church does or does not in UK. The sovereign is also the defender of faith and acts on advice of Parliament on temporal and spiritual issues. If UK were to adopt Islam as state religion tomorrow, we can also talk about forcing the mosques to do stuff according to will of Parliament.

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK, civil partnerships were introduced for same-sex couples, which gave AFAIK the exact same legal rights and tax benefits as heterosexual marriage. However, campaigners for gay marriage said this was not good enough so the Prime Minister eventually pushed through a vote for gay marriage. So it seems the issue wasn't really about legal rights, that just comes along for the ride, it was more about using the wor…

nobody anywhere (in the US) is forcing any religious institution to do anything. where did you get that idea?

Here is an example from the UK, August 2013 (not sure what the current status is). I have no dog in this fight but to me this does not seem like tolerance on the part of the gay couple, this action comes across as somewhat spiteful.

"Millionaire gay fathers to sue the Church of England for not allowing them to get married in the church.

The first legal challenge to the Church of England's ban on same-sex marriage was launched today - months before the first gay wedding can take place.

Gay father Barrie Drewitt-Barlow declared: 'I want to go into my church and marry my husband.' He added: 'The only way forward for us now is to make a challenge in the courts against the Church.'

The legal move means an early test for David Cameron's promise to the CofE and Roman Catholic bishops that no church would be forced to conduct same-sex weddings against the will of its leaders and its faithful.

...

'It upsets me because I want it so much - a big lavish ceremony, the whole works.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2383686/Millionaire-...

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nobody anywhere (in the US) is forcing any religious institution to do anything. where did you get that idea?

Here is an example from the UK, August 2013 (not sure what the current status is). I have no dog in this fight but to me this does not seem like tolerance on the part of the gay couple, this action comes across as somewhat spiteful. "Millionaire gay fathers to sue the Church of England for not allowing them to get married in the church. The first legal challenge to the Church of England's ban on same-sex marriage was…

The Church of England and the British Government are not independent. That's the problem. They are unfortunately inter-related to a great degree.

See: 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England_Assembly_(Po...

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Governor_of_the_Church...

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#188
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but you made a mistake of projecting your own beliefs and value system onto Mozilla. Mozilla is simply a technology organization and their mission is to promote a free and open web. It is not human rights, animal rights, or anything else. If Brendan Eich believes in a free and open web then he is the right person for the job.

He doesn't even believe in free and open marriages...

I don't either - I believe in governmental civil-unions for all, and the marriage ceremony (or not) of your own choosing and would allow for stricter contracts to be signed among willing parties.

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#189

I think people would be much more serene if they stopped idolizing certain programmers, computer scientists and tech people in general as demigods. As influential, intelligent and wise as they may be, they are quite fallible, and their political views are very likely to be a volatile mess, like most other people. If it's any consolation, there has yet to be a cult tech figure who is a neo-Nazi/white nationalist or an…

The incredibly capable Terry Davis has frequently espoused views shared by white supremacists. He's the guy who wrote Losethos, TempleOS, and occasional screeds against black people and immigrants.

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about folks who think substantial U.S. carbon emission restrictions aren't a smart or effective policy and politically donate to that effect? There are likely a lot of people here who believe passionately that such inaction will lead to an uninhabitable planet. Serious, life-and-death stuff. Worth trying to get someone fired from their tech job?

I think there's a big difference that comes down to motivation. Somebody who tries to get a Nazi elected wants, at some level, for me to die. Thus, I cannot trust them to treat me well. Similarly, somebody who tries to get a gay marriage ban passed thinks that consenting adults should be prevented from marrying, and since there are no good rational reasons to do that (it's possible that there are some, but none have…

How about people that donate to fight the existence of polyamorous marriage licenses? Do you want to get them fired?

> there are no good rational reasons to do that

If you lived in the south bay area like I do, you'd suffer far more oppression from people with houses that oppose any and all kinds of development, than you would from the government not recognizing gay marriage (if you were gay). These people cost me thousands of dollars per year, and they make poorer people even worse off, driving them out of high-rent communities into far more dangerous areas and making them spend time and energy commuting. If some home-owner from west of El Camino that donated to the "Residents First" candidate's campaign in the Mountain View city elections became the CEO of Mozilla, how should I feel then? His cause is based in purely wicked selfishness, not some arbitrary nonsensical moral axioms or reasoning that you might call irrational.

At least Eich donated against Prop. 8 because he thought it was the right thing to do. He didn't gain any personal benefit from that donation -- it was at quite direct harm to himself (to the tune of $1000). That donation is actually a positive sign of moral character, relative to most people's bland non-contributing apathy. He just has bad moral axioms or couldn't think about this matter rationally.

> Again, they can't be trusted to treat homosexuals well in other contexts where they might have power.

I don't think you have an accurate model of how the average pious Christian that lives in California would behave (assuming that's the root cause of Eich's choices). You've come to false conclusions about what donating to anti-gay-marriage causes implies about one's personal attitude towards gay people. I'm sure there's some form of hypothetical marriage license that you wouldn't be in favor of, but that doesn't mean you're bigoted against those people. The state doesn't approve of anything but nuclear family marriage and its same-sex facsimile. I don't think that you'd be evil or couldn't be reasoned with if you believed that the state should encourage this social structure, it's just that your moral axioms or your views on what marriage is for are (probably) different than mine.

Actually, I'm just trying to be persuasive. The real reason you're wrong is that your opinion is built on your delusion that you and other people have free will, specifically, that of Eich having it. Going from the free will to no-free-will perspective, your attitude towards Eich maps to an attitude towards the universe being imperfect. So it happens to be imperfect in a way visible at the top of Mozilla. Big whoop.

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