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Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

nytimes.com

181–190 of 199 posts

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#181

If this thinking, that "we will do anything to prevent another terrorist attack, including give up our liberties", is acceptable, then why isn't giving up guns acceptable to prevent the next school massacre?

What if I told you, that there is a large gulf of possibility between "doing anything" and "doing nothing"?

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could take the outcome as indication that the popular will is always thwarted -- I'm not here to convince you otherwise, and your wording indicates you are up on the soapbox (Augean stables, really?). There's no outer bound to cynicism. My interpretation is that a thousand votes in Florida would have swung the election, so Florida voters and abstainers were quite powerful indeed. Often it's hard to tell for sure…

I'm not terribly much in favor of mob rule in the first place, but even if I were, it wouldn't further enamor me to see events like the result of the 2000 election. Yes, a relative few voters in Florida found themselves, by accident of history, in possession of political power far outstripping what their numbers would suggest, but given that no one can either plan for or expect such historical accidents, how can they…

My point is that individual voters can be powerful. The fact that you don't know, in advance, if this is the occasion does not alter the point.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#183
post #86

OK: once he got in office, it turned out that watching everyone seemed like a good idea. But here's the thing: it's unconstitutional. It's illegal. "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the…

This has been debunked to death. The issue isn't "houses, papers, and effects" not encompassing e-mail, but the "belonging to that person" aspect. Phone metadata doesn't "belong" to you. It belongs to your phone company. They generated it, they store it--you never even see it. It's also quite questionable how much of say your Facebook data "belongs" to you. Or your GPS location data. It's about you, but much or all o…

This is all true, but what if the government compels Facebook to hand over it's data about you? Clearly that is a violation of the fourth amendment?

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#184
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, if your analysis is correct... what do we do about it?

vote third party only

In the shortest term, voting third party makes little to no difference for structural reasons. That's not necessarily an immediate condemnation of the policy, though - a pattern of people voting third party could eventually flip things if only enough people sign on... However, once third parties start getting some clout, what stops the Powers That Be from co-opting them just as effectively as they have co-opted the major parties? How do you see this actually fixing things?

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#185
There is an interesting case of regulatory capture nobody seems to be discussing. From the article:

`"But they said his views have been shaped to a striking degree by the reality of waking up every day in the White House responsible for heading off the myriad threats he finds in his daily intelligence briefings.

`“When you get the package every morning, it puts steel in your spine,” said David Plouffe, the president’s longtime adviser. “There are people out there every day who are plotting....'

and then:

`Mr. Obama was surprised to learn after leaks by Edward J. Snowden...[we all know what]'

Every morning the president gets a propaganda dose from the very people he needs to reign in. OF COURSE they are going to tell him the sky is falling in and that they are the only ones holding it back. And since it's exciting and secret there is no cross check or balance.

He should be seizing the example of Snowdon's releases to realize that the books are being cooked. Instead he's been completely taken in by the briefing books. It's really no different from Joe Barton being taken in by BP.

Back in the Reagan era Alan Kay told me about his very short time as a white house advisor. Reagan's briefing book wasn't even a book, it was a three minute video. I'm sure it REALLY played up the Soviet threat, yet the security apparatus was as astonished as anyone else when the USSR collapsed.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#186
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been debunked to death. The issue isn't "houses, papers, and effects" not encompassing e-mail, but the "belonging to that person" aspect. Phone metadata doesn't "belong" to you. It belongs to your phone company. They generated it, they store it--you never even see it. It's also quite questionable how much of say your Facebook data "belongs" to you. Or your GPS location data. It's about you, but much or all o…

No -- the FISC has ruled that the third party doctrine makes NSA spying legal. The Supreme Court has not ruled on mass metadata collection.

Since the Supreme Court doesn't give advisory opinions, agencies always have to make educated guesses about whether the Supreme Court would find some course of action legal. E.g. The Supreme Court did not find the healthcare mandate legal until after attempts to implement it were challenged. In this case the NSA can very reasonably expect that the Supreme Court wold find metadata collection legal as a straightforward application of Smith v. Maryland.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#187
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been debunked to death. The issue isn't "houses, papers, and effects" not encompassing e-mail, but the "belonging to that person" aspect. Phone metadata doesn't "belong" to you. It belongs to your phone company. They generated it, they store it--you never even see it. It's also quite questionable how much of say your Facebook data "belongs" to you. Or your GPS location data. It's about you, but much or all o…

This is all true, but what if the government compels Facebook to hand over it's data about you? Clearly that is a violation of the fourth amendment?

A subpoena requesting documents relevant to an investigation is presumed reasonable under the 4th amendment. Generally, the government can compel you to turn over information relevant to an investigation of someone else. The subpoena power is very broad and also very old (predating the 4th amendment).

If the government hacked into Facebook's servers and took the data, that would be a violation of Facebook's 4th amendment rights, but it still wouldn't be a violation of yours.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#188
post #30

What's interesting is that the article suggests that Obama himself did not know extent of the NSA's activities. ("At the same time, aides said Mr. Obama was surprised to learn after leaks by Edward J. Snowden... just how far the surveillance had gone.") If that's true, it seems to indicate that Obama is not an overseer at all. Have our worst fears been confirmed? Is the NSA an unstoppable organization that reports to…

No kidding. This is either a lie "Golly, I had no idea, I am shocked! Until this news story blows over.", or a scary truth. If a contractor for the NSA was able to find more shocking abuses of liberty than the Commander in Chief knew of, it would seem what little oversight there is, is completely ineffective.

Both look bad for NSA and Obama, both should compel us to demand more transparency.

P.S. Some would say Snowden should have gone the sanctioned whistleblower route to bring this to the attention of the proper parties such as Pres. Obama. Personally I am not optimistic that that would have been effective. I believe Snowden has claimed trying to start conversations with superiors, and NSA claims he never did such a thing.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#189
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A system that relies on all of it's constituents being informed and politically active in order to be successful is structurally unsound. This in my opinion is the true problem with our representational democracy. I am wary of blaming people who have difficulty day to day making ends meet for not caring enough about spying, etc.

I'm not sure the founding fathers could have predicted what laid in store for the country or the world. We have reached the point, I believe, where it is impossible to expect the majority of the population to be knowledgeable in all the various facets of running one of the most powerful countries in the world. Economics. Cultures. Science. These are all words which could be separated into thousands of sub-topics. You…

I wonder how http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition would do.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine a presidential candidate making promises and saying a lot of things that he believed in about spying and how the agencies involved should work. Then he gets into office and finds out that things are much worse than he could have possibly known before getting into office. Would you prefer he keep to the path he laid out in campaigning or deal with reality as it is, even if it goes against his beliefs? I try to…

Naivete is an arguable excuse for Obama's statements prior to his first election. But he continued his anti-surveillance rhetoric during his second campaign, and there is simply no explanation for that other than lying.

Did he? I can't remember that being an important issue at all in the 2012 election.
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