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The Logic of “Stupid” Poor People

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Re: The Logic of “Stupid” Poor People

#181

Post by gaius »

MattGrommes wrote: post #49

One of the hard parts for me to understand about articles like this is the addition of race into a social calculation that may not have included race. If I see somebody I'm hiring has a clean car (one of the examples in the article), I'm not thinking "Great, a black person acting white by having a clean car, I'm hiring her", I'm thinking "Great, a tidy person with a clean car". I see this a lot. Obviously there are p…

That is one of the most poisonous memes spread by haters who want to drag their peers down to their level, that a black person is "acting white" or a woman "acts like a man", when all they're doing is, in a completely race- and gender-neutral way, working hard and improving themselves.

Re: The Logic of “Stupid” Poor People

#182

Post by theorique »

DanielStraight wrote: post #67
MattGrommes wrote: post #49

One of the hard parts for me to understand about articles like this is the addition of race into a social calculation that may not have included race. If I see somebody I'm hiring has a clean car (one of the examples in the article), I'm not thinking "Great, a black person acting white by having a clean car, I'm hiring her", I'm thinking "Great, a tidy person with a clean car". I see this a lot. Obviously there are p…

Please understand I am just trying to explain a viewpoint, not necessarily state my personal beliefs. I think the argument is that you won't notice when a white male is tidy. You notice a black person with a clean car because subconsciously you don't expect it. So even a positive thought or comment (a tidy person with a clean car) becomes racial because it would never have come up with a white male. See also: "articu…

I know some people think that way, and racialize everything.

I admit that I just don't get this point of view. I really don’t. I aim, and generally succeed, at being as color blind as possible.

To me a person with a clean car and nice clothes is a person with a clean car and tidy clothes. I don't get surprised when that person turns out to be a black female or a white man.

Same thing with a person at the opposite end of the spectrum - i.e. a nasty car and dirty clothes. While one could stereotype blacks in this situation (“ghetto”), or whites (“hillbilly”), why would you do that?

Re: The Logic of “Stupid” Poor People

#183

Post by Nimi »

emhart wrote: post #158
Domenic_S wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh god, take this 'privilege' stuff back to Tumblr. Not having kids isn't privilege, it's choice. Edit because I don't want this comment to come off too aggressively: you sullied a perfectly nice set of comments and truly interesting anecdote about your life by discounting it as privilege. Since when are wise choices privilege?

I think when you read my comment you may have been reading it with an eye toward whatever story you have of yourself? I didn't make any wise choices. That one guy, my manager at the Kenneth Cole, made those choices for me. I wanted to get my family gifts instead of getting interview clothes for myself, I would never have even thought to apply to Kenneth Cole, instead I was poached away from a job that paid me so litt…

Your former manager sounds like a very interesting person. Could you elaborate a little about him? What was it that he saw in you?

Re: The Logic of “Stupid” Poor People

#184

Post by theorique »

S_A_P wrote: post #105

The other day, I was hanging out with my uncle, who is a devoted hi-fi nut.(like tubes and lps and voodoo cables kinda hi-fi nut) He took me to a fellow 'enthusiasts' home who has spent the kind of money on a hi-fi system that I couldn't see happening even if I were a multi billionaire. This guy had the $160,000 US msrp(though he got them at the bargain price of only $60,000 plus a trade of some other equipment) Foca…

The clear dividing line is - can the person truly afford it?

If a person spends an absurd amount of money that he has (i.e. that he actually earned and saved) on something that seems crazy to most people, that's OK - he's making a personal choice with personal funds (i.e. hi-fi enthusiast man)

On the other hand, a person with a minimum wage job making the decision to buy a $2500 purse out of some speculation that it will help her make the jump to the next level? Frankly, that just seems foolish. Why not take $200 for a purse, $200 for a new suit?

It’s not the shopping for image and upward mobility that bothers people - that decision actually makes some sense.

The problem arises when that shopping crosses the line from reasonable spending that a person can afford and/or justify, into a place that’s completely insane and truly unaffordable.

Re: The Logic of “Stupid” Poor People

#185

Post by theorique »

300bps wrote: post #137
Nate75Sanders wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, the iPhone 5 really is not a very good example here. If you wear your super classy outfit to an interview AND you have the iPhone 5 instead of a prepaid Android phone (or worse -- a prepaid non-smartphone), it's going to show that you "belong" and that you're not poor. Some people really do pay attention to what kind of phone you have, particularly for these gateway-straddling jobs that the author talks about in…

Want to be really classy in an interview? Leave your smart, dumb or average phone at home.

They aren't talking about using a phone in an interview.

A smart phone is a valuable tool for a professional. Being able to send an email or call from the road when you're running late, or to receive same when your counterpart is running late - people expect this nowadays.

Of course, during the actual interview, it should go without saying to put it on silent and leave it in your pocket or purse.

Re: The Logic of “Stupid” Poor People

#186

Post by mcv »

consultant23522 wrote: post #143
emhart wrote: post #73

I cannot speak to the gendered or racial points (white male, here), but during my time in NYC I experienced first hand the escalation of opportunity that tracked with my escalation of signaling clothing and accessories. I was lucky enough to be poached from my job as a movie theater cleaner/attendant by the manager of a 5th Avenue Kenneth Cole. At the time I was struggling and would eventually end up temporarily home…

I'm also a white male and reading the article I kept thinking "The requirement for speaking and dressing well doesn't have anything to do with your skin color." The old adage about dressing for the job you want is true for everyone. I'm not suggesting that people of various colors, or women, or gays, or whatever other group does not face a greater degree of difficulty in these areas, but if you want to be one of the…

It might not be related to skin color, but it is related to being poor. Or appearing poor, versus appearing respectable.

I also think it depends a lot on the job. Jobs just above the low-end might have a stronger interest in filtering out the supposed low-lifes, than a job that requires a good education before you can even be considered. I can dress however I like, partially because the dress code for coders isn't terribly strict, and partially because my CV sells me much better than any suit could possibly do.

On the other hand, maybe I would be able to get a better job if I wore a suit. But because my income is good enough, I can afford to ignore jobs that require nice clothes. But if you're poor, every step up is a step away from poverty, and you can't afford to ignore that.

As for skin color, I think black people are still much more strongly associated with poverty than white people, so for them, avoiding the appearance of poverty might still be more important than for a white person of similar wealth. Anything to dodge the stigma.

Re: The Logic of “Stupid” Poor People

#187

Post by Casseres »

I don't care if someone has a $2,500 handbag. It's whether or not they have a $1 attitude or a $2,500 attitude - that I care about and primarily judge people on.

The author's mother had the right attitude (the determination) to help her neighbor. I know several people who can get things done and get what they want. They aren't rich or buy expensive things, they just have the determination to get an answer, find the right person, discover the right process, etc.

I think the author associated correlation with causation.

Re: The Logic of “Stupid” Poor People

#189

Post by mcv »

MrZongle2 wrote: post #121
Nate75Sanders wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, the iPhone 5 really is not a very good example here. If you wear your super classy outfit to an interview AND you have the iPhone 5 instead of a prepaid Android phone (or worse -- a prepaid non-smartphone), it's going to show that you "belong" and that you're not poor. Some people really do pay attention to what kind of phone you have, particularly for these gateway-straddling jobs that the author talks about in…

Counterpoint: after the novelty of wearing the super classy outfit and waving the iPhone 5 wears off once you have a job, what else do you now have to purchase -- outside your means -- to convince your co-workers that you "belong"? It would be cheaper to look for a job in an environment that is more interested in what you can do rather than what you tote . That is, after all, what most of us end up doing.

It would be awesome if HR people only ever judged people on skill, and not on appearance or presentation. But if there's one big takeaway from this article, it's that there really are gatekeepers that filter people based on whether they "belong". Faking that belonging can be incredibly important to escape the poverty trap.

Re: The Logic of “Stupid” Poor People

#190

Post by sanskritabelt »

MarkPNeyer wrote: post #176
sanskritabelt wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you're signaling "I'm the kind of person who's angling for a very painful metatarsal fracture."

i must disagree. i have had foot and knee problems my entire life, to the point that i never enjoyed running or doing anything althetic becuase it hurt too badly. since i started wearing the toe shoes, i learned to become more phsyically aware. my foot pain went away, and now i run regluarly and enjoy it. it's like night and day. if wearing toe shoes gives people foot problems, it's because they've trained their bodi…

I'm speaking from experience here, I bought a pair of vibrams, lost 70 pounds taking up running, and was doing great right up until I broke my metatarsal. Coming up on three years later I had to have surgery, a pin, orthotics, and I still need regular cortisone injections.

Here's a link: http://www.runnersworld.com/barefoot-running-minimalism/stud...

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