Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not so, because as others in this thread have stated, the key is intent.
Judging intent doesn't really work at scale. That's why we invented access controls.
This hacker might seem shady, but throwing him in jail is bad for everyone
181–190 of 213 posts
Re: This hacker might seem shady, but throwing him in jail is bad for everyone
#182Earlier quoted context omitted.
Then, it seems, a good solution to solve the problem is to have server owner to declare in advance what are intended use and what's not. Accessing information without providing the correct password is certainly unintended use, so is guessing passwords. And accessing knowing the password is definitely the intended mode of operation. A logical step is to make that machine readable. Oh, wait, suddenly this is getting to…
> Then, it seems, a good solution to solve the problem is to have server owner to declare in advance what are intended use and what's not. You mean like the Terms of Use for the AT&T website? http://www.att.com/gen/general?pid=11561#14
As for those exact terms, I suspect (IANAL) those exact terms prohibit almost any access to the site, as, for example, they forbid any programmatic access to obtain the information, and I haven't heard of any non-software user-agent implementations.
Re: This hacker might seem shady, but throwing him in jail is bad for everyone
#183Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Did you do anything wrong? Possibly, it depends on intent. Add in: You: Hahaha, guys I can get anybodies cake! You: Looool their security is awful! You: Hahah, we could short this companies stock! Then you clearly knew what you were doing and therefore did something wrong.
If knowing that you are doing something immoral makes it a crime why isn't all of Wall Street in prison?
2) Some are.
3) Not everyone involved in investment is doing something immoral.
Re: This hacker might seem shady, but throwing him in jail is bad for everyone
#184Earlier quoted context omitted.
Tackling that out of order, because it seems clearer. > Analogize with entering vs. breaking and entering. From Free Dictionary [1]: breaking and entering v., n. entering a residence or other enclosed property through the slightest amount of force (**even pushing open a door**), without authorization. Emphasis mine. If pushing a door counts, so does changing the user agent header or auto-incrementing IDs. The key her…
>Emphasis mine. If pushing a door counts, so does changing the user agent header or auto-incrementing IDs. The key here is "without authorization". I'm not so sure about that. If it's not pushing to request record 334, why is it pushing to request record 335? But I digress. Normally making standard web requests is analogized to looking, without touching . You have explicit authorization to go through the front door,…
For the same reason that it's OK for me to push in my door, but not to push in yours. Or why it's OK for me to type in my password, but not to type in your password.
> You have explicit authorization to go through the front door, and anything 'bad' you did inside was restricted to what you looked at.
There certainly isn't explicit permission; I think you mean implicit. Assuming you do, we just disagree here. You don't have a "presumption of authorization" when accessing something a reasonable person would know isn't meant for them to see. I think most of the rest of our disagreement flows from this.
I also don't see where you've made the case that get-the-employee's-SSN SQL injection attack is relevantly different from the send-an-id case.
Re: This hacker might seem shady, but throwing him in jail is bad for everyone
#185Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Emphasis mine. If pushing a door counts, so does changing the user agent header or auto-incrementing IDs. The key here is "without authorization". I'm not so sure about that. If it's not pushing to request record 334, why is it pushing to request record 335? But I digress. Normally making standard web requests is analogized to looking, without touching . You have explicit authorization to go through the front door,…
> I'm not so sure about that. If it's not pushing to request record 334, why is it pushing to request record 335? For the same reason that it's OK for me to push in my door, but not to push in yours. Or why it's OK for me to type in my password, but not to type in your password. > You have explicit authorization to go through the front door, and anything 'bad' you did inside was restricted to what you looked at. Ther…
Okay, I'm confused by your analogy. I was thinking of the situation as having a single door at the entrance to the establishment. I don't think it makes any sense at all to treat each page as a separate household on private property.
And I meant explicit. There is explicit permission to contact the web server.
>I also don't see where you've made the case that get-the-employee's-SSN SQL injection attack is relevantly different from the send-an-id case.
If I send a non-secret ID into the system and get info back, the system is working as designed. If I use SQL injection, the system is not working as designed. I think that's important. In the former case, I may be doing something unexpected, but I am not exceeding the authority given to me.
Re: This hacker might seem shady, but throwing him in jail is bad for everyone
#186Re: This hacker might seem shady, but throwing him in jail is bad for everyone
#187Earlier quoted context omitted.
Judging intent doesn't really work at scale. That's why we invented access controls.
Access controls are in place, but they aren't absolute. Hence why intent is key in this case, and why he was found guilty.
But the company leaking consumer information to the public without any proper security at all is not punished.
Re: This hacker might seem shady, but throwing him in jail is bad for everyone
#188Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'm not so sure about that. If it's not pushing to request record 334, why is it pushing to request record 335? For the same reason that it's OK for me to push in my door, but not to push in yours. Or why it's OK for me to type in my password, but not to type in your password. > You have explicit authorization to go through the front door, and anything 'bad' you did inside was restricted to what you looked at. Ther…
>For the same reason that it's OK for me to push in my door, but not to push in yours. Or why it's OK for me to type in my password, but not to type in your password. Okay, I'm confused by your analogy. I was thinking of the situation as having a single door at the entrance to the establishment. I don't think it makes any sense at all to treat each page as a separate household on private property. And I meant explici…
> I don't think it makes any sense at all to treat each page as a separate household on private property.
It's certainly true that some pages on a site might be private to someone else and others not. The page/site distinction is orthogonal to the authorized/unauthorized distinction. It's not clear to me why, in your story, it was OK to ask for ID 334, but it if it were, that doesn't automatically make it OK to grab 335.
The library is itself an analogy and it's a bit broken here, because of course at a library the ISBNs and the books they correspond to aren't meant to be private, unlike the ATT/Weev case. So let's imagine that your iPad automatically looked up your email address using its ICC ID because that was why they built it (I don't actually know if that's the case or not). It doesn't follow that you have permission to look up everyone else's. That's where I was going with the doors analogy. I hope that clears that up.
> There is explicit permission to contact the web server.
I deleted my counter to this because I think it's an irrelevant semantics issue. Let's let that one go.
> In the former case, I may be doing something unexpected, but I am not exceeding the authority given to me.
We keep stumbling on this concept of authority, and this thing about design. The design part I don't get. Didn't the library software's author design the system so that it took query parameters and directly formed SQL strings out of them? So isn't it working exactly as designed? Of course not, because the designer never intended it to be used that way [1]. So their intention is exactly what matters, and the same applies to trying incremental ICC IDs--clearly not the intent of the service. That's why this design/expectation dichotomy isn't there, or at least isn't relevant (it's also why I was distinguishing the "purpose of the software" from the "design of the code" earlier).
As for authority, you continue to see it as something the webserver can provide by virtue of its technical characteristics, and I--and the law--simply don't. Authorization in the technical sense is a technological codification of an authorization policy, which may be implicit. If that policy is obvious (which I think it is here), then it's that policy that matters, not its technical enforcement. I fear we're retreading ground here, though, and this may just boil down to having different axioms.
[1] You could say that there are layers to design and that the flaw in the designs here ("don't do any access control" vs "don't sanitize strings") are at grossly different granularities. That's true, but I'm not sure how you plan to formalize the appropriate level of generality that makes such a design flaw equivalent to permission to entry as opposed to simply not working as designed. I don't think you can without resorting to the designer's intent.
Re: This hacker might seem shady, but throwing him in jail is bad for everyone
#189Earlier quoted context omitted.
Access controls are in place, but they aren't absolute. Hence why intent is key in this case, and why he was found guilty.
Ah wonderful, so now I have to worry about how my intentions might be perceived by the government when visiting a publicly accessible web page. But the company leaking consumer information to the public without any proper security at all is not punished.
Everyone here keeps purposefully ignoring intent, but in the context of the law this is impossible. So no matter how much you hate it, this isn't something that can be a binary yes/no illegal/legal question based on some computer response to your query.
Re: This hacker might seem shady, but throwing him in jail is bad for everyone
#190Earlier quoted context omitted.
Where do you draw the line? What if your site uses Wordpress or some CMS, and it has a SQL injection zero day that is then exploited to gain access? Even if you did due diligence, kept your kernel and all your software up to date, and generally secured the server and the application as best you could, you could still be entirely unaware of flaws lurking within. It'd be more comparable to the lock on your front door b…
If you actually cared about your data being taken care of in this instance you should probably be running an IDS-esque or similar to notice and stop that form f attack in a blanket fashion (these certainly exist for SQLi attacks, names escape me in this moment). When using a proprietary, paid for web service or app you can blame the service provider. When hosting OSS code on your own server, exactly this is what the…
However, in terms of legal (or ethical) culpability it shouldn't really matter. An intruder is an intruder. Sometimes it's due to utter ignorance and foolishness on the part of the owner, sometimes it's due to a latent flaw in something they're using, sometimes it's a compromise of their hosting company, sometimes they get hit by a complete zero-day.
You should have legal recourse no matter the case, unless you are truly grossly negligent (posting your admin password on your index page, for example).